With Trump’s trial in New York only in session two days, it is ALready clear that the ordinary protocols of the justice system regarding Trump’s flaunting of his direct attacks on the gag order issued by Judge Merchan IS leaving the system creaking from the strain of trying to contain him.
The best idea I’ve heard for a way to control trump’s behavior was presented by a judge on MSNBC, I think on Chris Hayes show on Tuesday. She said she’d impose jail time, but stay its execution until the end of the trial. Initially it would be one day, but additional days could be added at the judge’s discretion over the course of the trial. The judge would announce the final tally at the end of the trial, not before, leaving trump to wonder which behaviors added to the tally and which he might get away with.
Yes, a good approach, especially in that it leaves him wondering. I also like Johnathan Alter’s proposal of sentencing him to community service. It’s term could also be lengthened with each violation.
Alter would have him picking up trash, but there are many possibilities. His rants (and campaigning) would ring especially hollow when originating from a homeless shelter laundry.
Alter’s article in the Washington Monthly is free:
In many ways, that’s true for all the ongoing attempts to make Donald accountable for his behavior and actions. Too bad there weren’t consequences for him throwing rocks at the toddler in the playpen next door. All the way up to his two impeachments, when McConnell and the Senate Republicans let him off the hook. And all the charges brought since January 6, that would have been more effective in 2022 than 2024. But we are where we are and what’s done is done. So what do we do now? He’s gotten away with so much for so long, it’s probably going to get really ugly if anything sticks. But we still have to try.
The Nazi coup trial in 1939 was declared a mistrial for the same behavior by the US Congresmen and Senator defendants. Instead of a retrial, the Truman Justice department declined and Truman had all records put away in the National Archive so the country could "Heal" after the war ended. That behavior worked then and looks like it will work again.Those Nazis did not just vanish. They lived long enough for their projeny and "community" to be well trained to pull it off next time.
What "Nazi coup trial" are you referring to? There was one that got under way in 1944. It had many defendants and was indeed a free-for-all. When the judge died of a heart attack (having been sorely tested for months), a mistrial was declared. As to the country "healing," the postwar era saw the rise of Joe McCarthy and McCarthyism, not to mention the anti-left vigilance of JEdgar Hoover's FBI -- IMO we still haven't shook that off. The U.S. was also making nicey-nice with Nazis if they had militarily useful expertise, e.g., Wernher von Braun (whom Tom Lehrer described in song as "a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience").
Victoria, I read PREQUEL this past winter. I just reread the chapters dealing with the 1944 trial and its aftermath. I don't think that's where Ransom got his information. In Maddow's telling, O. John Rogge, the prosecutor in the case, tried to keep the issue of Nazi penetration alive by going on a speaking tour after the war ended. The Truman Justice Department pretty clearly shut it down because several current and former members of Congress were implicated in collusion with the pro-Nazi defendants in the case. Rogge was summarily (and dramatically) fired and the court's 13,000-page (!!) transcript kept classified, which means Rogge couldn't quote from it in his book -- until 1961, when indeed the country's attention had moved on to other things.
Maddow notes: "Rogge's dismissal and the dismissal of his official report were big news, and drew a lot of criticism. . . . There were also a raft of calls -- from private citizens, civic organizations, and elected officials -- demanding the release of Rogge's 396-report in full. But Truman stuck to his guns. He kept that report hidden from the American public. Worse than that: he never took the time to say *why* he had done it. He may well have had a noble motivate for this decision, but he didn't ever tell the American public what exactly that might be."
It was late and I didn't remember the start. Details are hard to recall if you've been busy focussing on other issues.The indictment followed shortly after it was busted in 1939. Rachel Maddow's Ultra breaks it down.The trial itself, sure, because Truman was now President.....it was he that justified "Healing". I know all the rest of that, of course.
Where are you getting your information? Maddow's PREQUEL goes into considerable detail about it -- more than ULTRA did. I just quoted from it in reply to Victoria Brown. You might want to check it out.
Wish they could find a way to question him about any info related to Trump's excursions on the Lolita Express. I suspect there's something there that just might be unconscionable even in the eyes of most magas. I think Pecker knows who all the celebpeds are. Yeah, tawdry stuff, but we're talking Trump here, right?
Pecker won’t be telling all the stories. His relationship with the defendant goes way back!
DJT serves no useful purpose on this planet. We will never know the depth of his corruption. No heart. No soul. We who reject him thoroughly are on the right side! I stand clear and tall and proud I am on the right side of history should it ever be told.
His corruption goes way back to mob gambling interests using his casinos and buildings fo carry out their activities and Gulianni was in on it. Looked the other way and declined to indict.
I'll have another BigSomeThing Burger with lots of mayo and pickles, please! And pass the popcorn! The props and players in this drama are unbelievable! We have a Big Pecker on Viagra, as nurse Karen points out, testifying against a narcissistic King Baby with a load in his diaper as he rails against the forces of reality. It's absurd, surreal and actually quite entertaining. Incarcerating this Bad Boy Buffoon would be a big mistake; let him continue to make an ass out of himself for all to see, that's the best bet. Mankind hasn't seen a spectacle this insane since the days of Caligula. Danielle's suggestion makes sense, though. Defer his jail time until the show is over. Meanwhile, keep imposing huge fines and dispense the accumulated dough to the families of the people this low life scumbag has harmed with his intimidating, incendiary speech.
My feeling is that if trump wants so much to be a martyr, the court should oblige him. Just taking away his cell phone will be punishment that’s well deserved and overdue. Not to say also a relief for people’s eyes not having to read his adolescent rants. Enough already…
So tired of toddler misbehavior that no one can or will put a stop to. We live in a cruel version of DisneyWorld with a very large tunnel of horrors that has Dorian Gray presiding over the premises. Is the end in sight, or maybe on its deathbed.
strictly speaking the diatribe against Merchan doesn't violate the court order, but it sounds like the interview really did. I am still in favor of house arrest for these violations (notice that the law actually starts with fines and then allows further penalties). Sit in luxury in trump tower--no golf, no campaign stops except by zoom. Just allow him out to sit in trial.
I allow the zoom to prevent howls about election interference but also because by all reports trump gets more and more haggard and zoom would deplete the mysterious energy he has, that I think involves feedback from the crowd, and the followers would be able to SEE the deterioration.
Whether that is a punishment after conviction is a whole 'nother issue. But as a contempt punishment I think it would take the fangs out of the victim scam. At least it would show that calling people names isn't quite what trump seems to have taught his followers is AOK.
Though I have to admit the names my Substack communities calls trump himself are really, really funny. But no Dem I've seen has used the jibes for stochastic terrorism.
Trump is a squalling 7th grader. Give him detention AND TAKE AWAY HIS DAMNED PHONE. Anyone who has parented or taught a seventh grade class that this is the only punishment that would bring the childish behavior of the trumpster under control. Even in the days of land lines - the threat of taking away phone privileges turned the raging child into a complacent reasonable preteen.
Okay, so I was being generous. But I taught one class one year of seventh grade, it was like an assignment to hell. Kindergartners are much better behaved. It's funny because those horrid little seventh graders gain the intellect and maturity of 8th graders over one summer. You can reason with a thirteen year old, but twelve year olds ICK
Trump is daring the judge to jail him for a variety of reasons.He will massively fund raise if this happens.He will possibly take on a martyrs stance. Trump is a virtual Houdini@ evading justice.I feel for this judge and hope the trial can proceed without TFG misbehaving so much that he somehow forces a mistrial.I too am with those who feel he should be jailed at the trial's end.
The best idea I’ve heard for a way to control trump’s behavior was presented by a judge on MSNBC, I think on Chris Hayes show on Tuesday. She said she’d impose jail time, but stay its execution until the end of the trial. Initially it would be one day, but additional days could be added at the judge’s discretion over the course of the trial. The judge would announce the final tally at the end of the trial, not before, leaving trump to wonder which behaviors added to the tally and which he might get away with.
Yes, a good approach, especially in that it leaves him wondering. I also like Johnathan Alter’s proposal of sentencing him to community service. It’s term could also be lengthened with each violation.
Alter would have him picking up trash, but there are many possibilities. His rants (and campaigning) would ring especially hollow when originating from a homeless shelter laundry.
Alter’s article in the Washington Monthly is free:
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2024/04/05/make-donald-trump-pick-up-trash-if-he-violates-the-gag-order/
The judge needs to get creative.
Too little, too late.
In many ways, that’s true for all the ongoing attempts to make Donald accountable for his behavior and actions. Too bad there weren’t consequences for him throwing rocks at the toddler in the playpen next door. All the way up to his two impeachments, when McConnell and the Senate Republicans let him off the hook. And all the charges brought since January 6, that would have been more effective in 2022 than 2024. But we are where we are and what’s done is done. So what do we do now? He’s gotten away with so much for so long, it’s probably going to get really ugly if anything sticks. But we still have to try.
I believe it was Neil Katyal who suggested that, Danielle.
It was a retired female judge. I wish I could remember her name! She may have been on in the same segment as Neil.
The Nazi coup trial in 1939 was declared a mistrial for the same behavior by the US Congresmen and Senator defendants. Instead of a retrial, the Truman Justice department declined and Truman had all records put away in the National Archive so the country could "Heal" after the war ended. That behavior worked then and looks like it will work again.Those Nazis did not just vanish. They lived long enough for their projeny and "community" to be well trained to pull it off next time.
Next time is NOW.
What "Nazi coup trial" are you referring to? There was one that got under way in 1944. It had many defendants and was indeed a free-for-all. When the judge died of a heart attack (having been sorely tested for months), a mistrial was declared. As to the country "healing," the postwar era saw the rise of Joe McCarthy and McCarthyism, not to mention the anti-left vigilance of JEdgar Hoover's FBI -- IMO we still haven't shook that off. The U.S. was also making nicey-nice with Nazis if they had militarily useful expertise, e.g., Wernher von Braun (whom Tom Lehrer described in song as "a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience").
Susanna, Ransom may be referring to happenings that
are covered in Rachel Maddox "Prequel". A lot of her
info came from N. Archives,
which is a treasure trove of
info.
Assuming the box hasn't been mislabeled.
Victoria, I read PREQUEL this past winter. I just reread the chapters dealing with the 1944 trial and its aftermath. I don't think that's where Ransom got his information. In Maddow's telling, O. John Rogge, the prosecutor in the case, tried to keep the issue of Nazi penetration alive by going on a speaking tour after the war ended. The Truman Justice Department pretty clearly shut it down because several current and former members of Congress were implicated in collusion with the pro-Nazi defendants in the case. Rogge was summarily (and dramatically) fired and the court's 13,000-page (!!) transcript kept classified, which means Rogge couldn't quote from it in his book -- until 1961, when indeed the country's attention had moved on to other things.
Maddow notes: "Rogge's dismissal and the dismissal of his official report were big news, and drew a lot of criticism. . . . There were also a raft of calls -- from private citizens, civic organizations, and elected officials -- demanding the release of Rogge's 396-report in full. But Truman stuck to his guns. He kept that report hidden from the American public. Worse than that: he never took the time to say *why* he had done it. He may well have had a noble motivate for this decision, but he didn't ever tell the American public what exactly that might be."
Also, there was an attempted Nazi coup in 1934 or35, that was uncovered by Gen.Smedley Butler, Cmdt, USMC.
It was a domestic fascist coup.
Domestic Nazis. Nazsymps, in JBS speak.
It was late and I didn't remember the start. Details are hard to recall if you've been busy focussing on other issues.The indictment followed shortly after it was busted in 1939. Rachel Maddow's Ultra breaks it down.The trial itself, sure, because Truman was now President.....it was he that justified "Healing". I know all the rest of that, of course.
Where are you getting your information? Maddow's PREQUEL goes into considerable detail about it -- more than ULTRA did. I just quoted from it in reply to Victoria Brown. You might want to check it out.
Prequel is on my list. The pile of unreads is going to be culled for the library book sale.
No turning back now Pecker…you’ve already taken the viagra..so keep talking.
He has to keep talking or he loses his immunity agreement. Has to cooperate completely
Wish they could find a way to question him about any info related to Trump's excursions on the Lolita Express. I suspect there's something there that just might be unconscionable even in the eyes of most magas. I think Pecker knows who all the celebpeds are. Yeah, tawdry stuff, but we're talking Trump here, right?
I can sure see one big benefit of jailing Trump for contempt: they'll take away his phone. Oh, the blessed silence!
Pecker won’t be telling all the stories. His relationship with the defendant goes way back!
DJT serves no useful purpose on this planet. We will never know the depth of his corruption. No heart. No soul. We who reject him thoroughly are on the right side! I stand clear and tall and proud I am on the right side of history should it ever be told.
His corruption goes way back to mob gambling interests using his casinos and buildings fo carry out their activities and Gulianni was in on it. Looked the other way and declined to indict.
I'll have another BigSomeThing Burger with lots of mayo and pickles, please! And pass the popcorn! The props and players in this drama are unbelievable! We have a Big Pecker on Viagra, as nurse Karen points out, testifying against a narcissistic King Baby with a load in his diaper as he rails against the forces of reality. It's absurd, surreal and actually quite entertaining. Incarcerating this Bad Boy Buffoon would be a big mistake; let him continue to make an ass out of himself for all to see, that's the best bet. Mankind hasn't seen a spectacle this insane since the days of Caligula. Danielle's suggestion makes sense, though. Defer his jail time until the show is over. Meanwhile, keep imposing huge fines and dispense the accumulated dough to the families of the people this low life scumbag has harmed with his intimidating, incendiary speech.
30 days and 30 days and 30 days………………..
Maybe the fine dough could go to help immigrants in NYC. Wouldn't that fry him?
My feeling is that if trump wants so much to be a martyr, the court should oblige him. Just taking away his cell phone will be punishment that’s well deserved and overdue. Not to say also a relief for people’s eyes not having to read his adolescent rants. Enough already…
I get the point about not creating a martyr, but he already has made himself a martyr by his own public statements comparing himself with, um, Him.
Trump is literally begging Judge Merchan to jail him for contempt of court
“Watch as I poke myself in the eye, then get you MAGA guys to believe that Crooked Judge did it instead”
BigSomethingBurger with rancid meat. Glad I gave it up years ago.
So tired of toddler misbehavior that no one can or will put a stop to. We live in a cruel version of DisneyWorld with a very large tunnel of horrors that has Dorian Gray presiding over the premises. Is the end in sight, or maybe on its deathbed.
strictly speaking the diatribe against Merchan doesn't violate the court order, but it sounds like the interview really did. I am still in favor of house arrest for these violations (notice that the law actually starts with fines and then allows further penalties). Sit in luxury in trump tower--no golf, no campaign stops except by zoom. Just allow him out to sit in trial.
I allow the zoom to prevent howls about election interference but also because by all reports trump gets more and more haggard and zoom would deplete the mysterious energy he has, that I think involves feedback from the crowd, and the followers would be able to SEE the deterioration.
Whether that is a punishment after conviction is a whole 'nother issue. But as a contempt punishment I think it would take the fangs out of the victim scam. At least it would show that calling people names isn't quite what trump seems to have taught his followers is AOK.
Though I have to admit the names my Substack communities calls trump himself are really, really funny. But no Dem I've seen has used the jibes for stochastic terrorism.
Trump is a squalling 7th grader. Give him detention AND TAKE AWAY HIS DAMNED PHONE. Anyone who has parented or taught a seventh grade class that this is the only punishment that would bring the childish behavior of the trumpster under control. Even in the days of land lines - the threat of taking away phone privileges turned the raging child into a complacent reasonable preteen.
7th grader? Kindergartener!
Okay, so I was being generous. But I taught one class one year of seventh grade, it was like an assignment to hell. Kindergartners are much better behaved. It's funny because those horrid little seventh graders gain the intellect and maturity of 8th graders over one summer. You can reason with a thirteen year old, but twelve year olds ICK
Don’t disparage either.
If Trump loses his phone, then we're stuck with Cheung
and Miller, 2 nasty snakes that aren't covered in the courts gag order. I'm for $
penalties now, with behind bars or community service:
possibly emptying bed pans
in a nursing home, or picking
up dog feces in Central Park.
More damaging testimony to
come in NY.
My biggest concern is SCOTUS today and the immunity hearing. Pray if you
do and cross all your fingers!
Trump is daring the judge to jail him for a variety of reasons.He will massively fund raise if this happens.He will possibly take on a martyrs stance. Trump is a virtual Houdini@ evading justice.I feel for this judge and hope the trial can proceed without TFG misbehaving so much that he somehow forces a mistrial.I too am with those who feel he should be jailed at the trial's end.
We will never know the depth of the corruption that is DJT and Pecker. Interesting…
https://open.substack.com/pub/sethabramson/p/what-longtime-trump-associate-david?r=3hn50&utm_medium=ios