Fingers crossed that this is the beginning of the end. Israel is so in danger of loosing its soul.
If Israel really wants to harm Hamas, wants them to wish they were never born, implement the two state solution, with international guarantees, international funding of significant infrastructure in the West Bank and Gaza, internationally funded reparations for Palestinian land taken in Israel proper and the West Bank in substitution for any right of return, and a condominium over Jerusalem. A fully functioning Palestinian state in peace with Israel, and with lots to loose should they harbor terrorists, will be the greatest blow against Hamas.
Yes. One doesn't have to support the terrorist tactics of Hamas or their ideology to recognize that Gaza and the West Bank have been treated to repeated indignities (to choose a mildly neutral word) by Israel. I do wish that before all this happened, the other Arab countries had done more to insist on new and fair elections in Gaza since they do (or perhaps now did) want peace in the whole area.
For decades Israel-Palestine was caught up in the Cold War. Apart from Jordan, and eventually Egypt, being seen to support Israel in any way was a huge risk. It killed Anwar Sadat (1981). On the other side, being open to rapprochement with the Arab states killed Yitzhak Rabin (1995). All the while the US and the USSR (as long as it existed) were selling arms arms arms to their proxies in the area. Iraq served as a something of a buffer against Iran -- until the US blew it apart in the 2000s. And how do you hold "fair elections" in any place that doesn't have a deep-rooted democratic tradition? We're not doing a great job of it here in the US. Is it fair to expect Gaza or Egypt or Iraq or Syria (etc.) to do better?
I just said I wish they had tried. Hamas didn't actually "win" the last election in Gaza. The vote was Hamas 44.45 % 74 seats, Fatah 41.43 % 45 seats (the difference in seats had to do with differences in region in a way I'm not clear about, but I think was like the way the electoral college is different from the popular vote here). Hamas took over thereafter with a violent coup.
As I said, any hope of getting rid of Hamas by way of elections would have had to have been before everything blew up. But I think it is a mistake to look at the past history of Arab/Israeli relations as a measure of what the attitudes are now. Clearly there were negotiations going on just before 10/7. The other states have come to realize that regional instability is not good for business, even that of SiSi. As to how to ensure fair elections--I'd presume the countries insisting would have set up some sort of monitoring. But this is all oops to late by now.
It's a huge mistake NOT to look at "the past history of Arab/Israeli relations" as a guide to what's happening now -- and to conveniently gloss over 20th century Western history in the region. Negotiations take place at the top. "Trickle down" works about as well in the Middle East as it does in the U.S. and elsewhere. And do you really believe that Western-style elections, either U.S. or parliamentary style, can be exported wholesale to countries with different traditions of governance? The experience in, e.g., Iraq and Afghanistan suggests otherwise.
As far as I can tell, Egyptian public opinion before the War started was overall in favor of peace with Israel. Wish I could find the cite. There are lots of folks who aren't at the top who see stability in the region as necessary for continued growth. There weren't really true terrorist groups in the area other than Hezbollah and even they weren't coming into Israel the way Hamas did. Hamas lobbed missiles, but that isn't really what "terrorist" means. The opinion has changed drastically since Israel's response to 10/7. In that Hamas has achieved a serious win, quite possibly what they intended by the attack. And the propaganda win is spreading. Israel is losing support amongst people and even governments far beyond the radical types who yammer on about colonialism.
Palestine in fact HAD a parliamentary democracy. The leadership was corrupt, but if corrupt leadership means no democracy, then Israel isn't a democracy either. Which is clearly not true. It was the Hamas coup that stopped democracy dead--they ran on an anti-corruption platform. Hamas and Fatah were actually planning new elections in 2021 but pressure from Israel and the US over their agreed platform (a Palestinian state under the 1967 borders) had the Hamas president cancel the elections.
And hopefully the dam bursts and washes all those violent right wing settlers down the Jordan River to the Red Sea, along the Yahoo, Bibi and all his fascistic Likudturds. Then a real peace MIGHT be possible.
Gantz was in DC a few weeks ago, allegedly against the wishes of Netanyahu, and that gave me hope for a meaningful ceasefire. Mindless zealotry is always dangerous, and with Bibi and his right wingers that's what Israel's got.
Finally a real showing of intelligence on the part of Israel. Get rid of Netanyahu. Then go to the UN and have the plug pulled on Iran, if all or most of the countries insisted Iran stop training an financing these terrorists we might, just might, have peace in the middle east.
That's a good thought. A better world is possible. But first, you have to get the bullies out of the seats of power and off the streets where they lurk in the shadows. We have to all develop our courage as individuals and then work together to defeat these monsters who are only too eager to destroy the world and all its beauty. They can't stand beauty that doesn't come out of a box. It must frighten them. Eleanor Roosevelt was a shy person who grew into an amazing person. She challenged herself to do one thing every day that frightened her. She was the first First Lady to go into an active war zone in the Pacific. She was not at all sure she'd make it back.
I'm reading Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. We are a bloodthirsty animal once we give in to our violent selves. That is precisely why human beings should figure out other ways of resolving conflicts. Some days are more discouraging than others and this is one of those days. You do not keep people safe by killing them.
Israel needs ally itself more closely with Arab states who also want to reign in Iran. They can assist in building a Palestinian state - their support would replace Iranian help minus the support for Hamas and weapons. Besides the religious split between Iran and the Arab states, no one wants to see the return of the Persian Empire with its implications.
Thank You for possibility!! Yesterday I listened to Michael Moore's podcast on Gaza and the Palestinians, promoting among other ideas, a "ONE State Solution," something called, um, a democracy, for Israel, where people of different religions can coexist happily together, like most of us do in the USA (or did before trump deviled us).
Fingers crossed that this is the beginning of the end. Israel is so in danger of loosing its soul.
If Israel really wants to harm Hamas, wants them to wish they were never born, implement the two state solution, with international guarantees, international funding of significant infrastructure in the West Bank and Gaza, internationally funded reparations for Palestinian land taken in Israel proper and the West Bank in substitution for any right of return, and a condominium over Jerusalem. A fully functioning Palestinian state in peace with Israel, and with lots to loose should they harbor terrorists, will be the greatest blow against Hamas.
exactly right
Bibi, like chump, wants to stay out of jail.
Bibi the Chump, like Donald the Chip, and Putin the Putrid all want to stay out of jail. I've had it with the whole lot of them.
Mob rule should appeal to no one, but the money rules the fools and fools the sycophants
No kidding -- and why don't more people get this? Or realize that Hamas didn't come out of nowhere?
Yes. One doesn't have to support the terrorist tactics of Hamas or their ideology to recognize that Gaza and the West Bank have been treated to repeated indignities (to choose a mildly neutral word) by Israel. I do wish that before all this happened, the other Arab countries had done more to insist on new and fair elections in Gaza since they do (or perhaps now did) want peace in the whole area.
For decades Israel-Palestine was caught up in the Cold War. Apart from Jordan, and eventually Egypt, being seen to support Israel in any way was a huge risk. It killed Anwar Sadat (1981). On the other side, being open to rapprochement with the Arab states killed Yitzhak Rabin (1995). All the while the US and the USSR (as long as it existed) were selling arms arms arms to their proxies in the area. Iraq served as a something of a buffer against Iran -- until the US blew it apart in the 2000s. And how do you hold "fair elections" in any place that doesn't have a deep-rooted democratic tradition? We're not doing a great job of it here in the US. Is it fair to expect Gaza or Egypt or Iraq or Syria (etc.) to do better?
I just said I wish they had tried. Hamas didn't actually "win" the last election in Gaza. The vote was Hamas 44.45 % 74 seats, Fatah 41.43 % 45 seats (the difference in seats had to do with differences in region in a way I'm not clear about, but I think was like the way the electoral college is different from the popular vote here). Hamas took over thereafter with a violent coup.
As I said, any hope of getting rid of Hamas by way of elections would have had to have been before everything blew up. But I think it is a mistake to look at the past history of Arab/Israeli relations as a measure of what the attitudes are now. Clearly there were negotiations going on just before 10/7. The other states have come to realize that regional instability is not good for business, even that of SiSi. As to how to ensure fair elections--I'd presume the countries insisting would have set up some sort of monitoring. But this is all oops to late by now.
It's a huge mistake NOT to look at "the past history of Arab/Israeli relations" as a guide to what's happening now -- and to conveniently gloss over 20th century Western history in the region. Negotiations take place at the top. "Trickle down" works about as well in the Middle East as it does in the U.S. and elsewhere. And do you really believe that Western-style elections, either U.S. or parliamentary style, can be exported wholesale to countries with different traditions of governance? The experience in, e.g., Iraq and Afghanistan suggests otherwise.
As far as I can tell, Egyptian public opinion before the War started was overall in favor of peace with Israel. Wish I could find the cite. There are lots of folks who aren't at the top who see stability in the region as necessary for continued growth. There weren't really true terrorist groups in the area other than Hezbollah and even they weren't coming into Israel the way Hamas did. Hamas lobbed missiles, but that isn't really what "terrorist" means. The opinion has changed drastically since Israel's response to 10/7. In that Hamas has achieved a serious win, quite possibly what they intended by the attack. And the propaganda win is spreading. Israel is losing support amongst people and even governments far beyond the radical types who yammer on about colonialism.
Palestine in fact HAD a parliamentary democracy. The leadership was corrupt, but if corrupt leadership means no democracy, then Israel isn't a democracy either. Which is clearly not true. It was the Hamas coup that stopped democracy dead--they ran on an anti-corruption platform. Hamas and Fatah were actually planning new elections in 2021 but pressure from Israel and the US over their agreed platform (a Palestinian state under the 1967 borders) had the Hamas president cancel the elections.
All of the above!
Why so long? The murder of the relief workers punched a hole in my heart.
WHY SO LONG. That was a gut punch
They do not care who or what they destroy as long as they stay out of jail. Following narcissistic sociopaths does not end well for anyone.
And hopefully the dam bursts and washes all those violent right wing settlers down the Jordan River to the Red Sea, along the Yahoo, Bibi and all his fascistic Likudturds. Then a real peace MIGHT be possible.
Gantz was in DC a few weeks ago, allegedly against the wishes of Netanyahu, and that gave me hope for a meaningful ceasefire. Mindless zealotry is always dangerous, and with Bibi and his right wingers that's what Israel's got.
And we are getting much the same here.
Gods, it is about time!!
Finally a real showing of intelligence on the part of Israel. Get rid of Netanyahu. Then go to the UN and have the plug pulled on Iran, if all or most of the countries insisted Iran stop training an financing these terrorists we might, just might, have peace in the middle east.
That's a good thought. A better world is possible. But first, you have to get the bullies out of the seats of power and off the streets where they lurk in the shadows. We have to all develop our courage as individuals and then work together to defeat these monsters who are only too eager to destroy the world and all its beauty. They can't stand beauty that doesn't come out of a box. It must frighten them. Eleanor Roosevelt was a shy person who grew into an amazing person. She challenged herself to do one thing every day that frightened her. She was the first First Lady to go into an active war zone in the Pacific. She was not at all sure she'd make it back.
Thank you
About f***ing time…let’s see if this gets anywhere soon to stop the killing on both sides.
Will there be any people left to kill if it drags on and on
As long as it isn’t Bibi’s or the rabid Zionists’ asses on the front line getting killed, they could care less how many lives are wasted.
It seems that they glory in the carnage. Sort of like their enemies always have.
I'm reading Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands. We are a bloodthirsty animal once we give in to our violent selves. That is precisely why human beings should figure out other ways of resolving conflicts. Some days are more discouraging than others and this is one of those days. You do not keep people safe by killing them.
Exactly.
There is always the rest of the world and these guys are willing to take us all on. Don't doubt that for a minute.
Proved to be true
Finally
Israel needs ally itself more closely with Arab states who also want to reign in Iran. They can assist in building a Palestinian state - their support would replace Iranian help minus the support for Hamas and weapons. Besides the religious split between Iran and the Arab states, no one wants to see the return of the Persian Empire with its implications.
Thank You for possibility!! Yesterday I listened to Michael Moore's podcast on Gaza and the Palestinians, promoting among other ideas, a "ONE State Solution," something called, um, a democracy, for Israel, where people of different religions can coexist happily together, like most of us do in the USA (or did before trump deviled us).
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-312-this-podcast-and-palestine-before-october-7th/id1490354763?i=1000651043400