I can't like this article Tom, but I do appreciate it very much. Unfortunately it aligns with my vision of a future in which we become three separate Countries: The Northeastern States of American closely allied with the Western States of America, and whatever the hell the remaining 24 contiguous dumbbell States want to call their new co…
I can't like this article Tom, but I do appreciate it very much. Unfortunately it aligns with my vision of a future in which we become three separate Countries: The Northeastern States of American closely allied with the Western States of America, and whatever the hell the remaining 24 contiguous dumbbell States want to call their new country. If this ever comes to happen I hope they allow a five year period to give a chance for those democracy supporting people in the "red" States to move to either the Northeast or West, and any dumbbells remaining in the 'blue' countries. Hopefully it can be a bloodless transition. The US and Europe are roughly the same size and the European countries manage to coexist (with periodic wars) We should be able to do the same. I just can't see those of us who live in the liberal progressive states being able to live under fascism.
In this day and age, I think the Northeast and the West can be one country, and I don't see why it shouldn't be a bloodless transition. My only misgiving is that it might become impossible to "drive across the country," or bicycle across the country, both of which I've done. (Three x-country trips by the time I was 8 were formative experiences of my life. When I was 10 I figured out that I could bicycle x-country within a summer vacation.) And no Cannonball Run.
I suspect that after 10 years of such a change, it would be obvious to the South that we, the North, would be doing better, that many might want to join us. And then it might once again be possible to bicycle or drive across the country.
Please all of you just stop this stupidity over secession. Tell me how, if it should happen, seniors in the seceded states would get their social security payments from a federal government their state government was rebelling against, and how any of that would lead to those people supporting the secessionists?
Then please tell me what happens to all the Democrats in Houston and Austin, and every other blue Southern city? What happens to all the black folks in the South who certainly are not supporters of fascism?
That's just to scrape the top 1% of the secession insanity. We are, like it or not, hopelessly bound to each other by a tangled web of conjoined interests that cannot be broken without creating more harm than the act of insanity would deliver anything good.
Come on, the thing I really like about the community of people who have joined TAFM is the high level of group intelligence. Yes, politics today are frustrating and if you don't think too much about the aftermath, removing the people you don't like seems a good idea - of course, that's why more the goddamned southern MAGAts are promoting it than any other group. Consider that - you really want to agree with Marjorie Traitor Goon about ANYTHING???
The idea of secession is the Number One Dumbest Idea In American Politics. It beats Term Limits and the Balanced Budget Amendment.
I think Lincoln actually got the whole picture. He understood that the South would still become the enemy of the North if it seceded, and he would have no legal authority over it. If ending slavery was integral to saving the republic, his only option was to refuse to accept the southern secession. An independent Confederate republic would have challenged the remnant union aggressively for western territories, possibly ending up at war in any event. The legacy of such a conflict could very well have come to mean that those of us who grew up in western states would experience a completely different reality than the one we have known. By keeping the South part of the republic, Lincoln just might have given me the opportunity to learn about the legacy of slavery in a light that never would have been lit in a pro-Confederacy culture, for which I am very grateful.
One counterpoint: I suspect that had the South been enabled to secede, it would have been quite inferior. economically, to the North, and the North would likely have won almost all battles for the West. People work harder for themselves, starting businesses, inventing new ways of doing things, etc., than they do for others. And see Susan Knox' comment directly above yours.
Yes. It's also why, so long as the North maintained its focus on victory, the South could never win. Other than cotton, the rest of the southern economy wa 15% of what the equivalent sector was in the North.
Thanks David. I knew I was opening a speculative can of worms. You are probably right in the main, but settling the west would have been a messier picture. One thing would have been very different for me personally. My grandfather went to Montana from Texas on a cattle drive. He met my grandmother there and settled down. Without a definitive end to the Civil War, it’s possible that doesn’t happen. And then there’s the 20th century wars in Europe. It’s easy to imagine the Confederacy staying out of the first and aligning itself with the Axis powers in the second. Does the Normandy invasion happen without southerners in large numbers? I’m not well enough read here to go farther on this, topic but I can’t imagine a hostile southern neighbor would have left the US to develop as it did but just without the South.
Without the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Mississippi will wipe out all the industry on it's way to the delta. In 1973, John MpcPhee wrote in the Control of Nature, that if Nature is allowed to take it's course, WWII would do less damage to Southern Louisiana and the oil industry in the bayou, and all the industries in the "American Ruhr". The Old South can not survive without Northern experience and expertise.
I made one Sacramento to Austin Texas round trip for work and another Sacramento to Washington DC Round trip, also for work. the rest of my work travel was via plane. too many to remember. That plus many National Park vacation trips. We have the good fortune to live in a beautiful country. It is a shame that all of us can't or won't understand that we are all the same Genus and species. I lived in Gainesville and Lakeland, Florida for a combined 17 months, that was all I could stomach of racism and southern drawl. When I went back for a short family visit in 1989 they ad managed to despoil the once beautiful white sand beach with black tarry oil, Yuck
Thank you for your comment Faye. I live in the PNW and they are already migrating here seeming exponentially. For the last few years there have been many more license plates from Florida, Texas, Alabama and more. In the last several months I've noticed an even greater uptick. They aren't tourists.
They know exactly where they're going on the roads. There new plates just haven't arrived yet.
I can't like this article Tom, but I do appreciate it very much. Unfortunately it aligns with my vision of a future in which we become three separate Countries: The Northeastern States of American closely allied with the Western States of America, and whatever the hell the remaining 24 contiguous dumbbell States want to call their new country. If this ever comes to happen I hope they allow a five year period to give a chance for those democracy supporting people in the "red" States to move to either the Northeast or West, and any dumbbells remaining in the 'blue' countries. Hopefully it can be a bloodless transition. The US and Europe are roughly the same size and the European countries manage to coexist (with periodic wars) We should be able to do the same. I just can't see those of us who live in the liberal progressive states being able to live under fascism.
Respectfully, we are past the cusp of beginning of Hilter’s overthrow of Germany in this country. There will never be “playing nice” with Republicans.
Agreed, that's why I'd prefer to split, difficult as that would be.
I agree, Fay.
Wouldn't Putin be pleased if we divided.
Lincoln should have let the South go.
In this day and age, I think the Northeast and the West can be one country, and I don't see why it shouldn't be a bloodless transition. My only misgiving is that it might become impossible to "drive across the country," or bicycle across the country, both of which I've done. (Three x-country trips by the time I was 8 were formative experiences of my life. When I was 10 I figured out that I could bicycle x-country within a summer vacation.) And no Cannonball Run.
I suspect that after 10 years of such a change, it would be obvious to the South that we, the North, would be doing better, that many might want to join us. And then it might once again be possible to bicycle or drive across the country.
Please all of you just stop this stupidity over secession. Tell me how, if it should happen, seniors in the seceded states would get their social security payments from a federal government their state government was rebelling against, and how any of that would lead to those people supporting the secessionists?
Then please tell me what happens to all the Democrats in Houston and Austin, and every other blue Southern city? What happens to all the black folks in the South who certainly are not supporters of fascism?
That's just to scrape the top 1% of the secession insanity. We are, like it or not, hopelessly bound to each other by a tangled web of conjoined interests that cannot be broken without creating more harm than the act of insanity would deliver anything good.
Come on, the thing I really like about the community of people who have joined TAFM is the high level of group intelligence. Yes, politics today are frustrating and if you don't think too much about the aftermath, removing the people you don't like seems a good idea - of course, that's why more the goddamned southern MAGAts are promoting it than any other group. Consider that - you really want to agree with Marjorie Traitor Goon about ANYTHING???
The idea of secession is the Number One Dumbest Idea In American Politics. It beats Term Limits and the Balanced Budget Amendment.
I think Lincoln actually got the whole picture. He understood that the South would still become the enemy of the North if it seceded, and he would have no legal authority over it. If ending slavery was integral to saving the republic, his only option was to refuse to accept the southern secession. An independent Confederate republic would have challenged the remnant union aggressively for western territories, possibly ending up at war in any event. The legacy of such a conflict could very well have come to mean that those of us who grew up in western states would experience a completely different reality than the one we have known. By keeping the South part of the republic, Lincoln just might have given me the opportunity to learn about the legacy of slavery in a light that never would have been lit in a pro-Confederacy culture, for which I am very grateful.
Very interesting points.
One counterpoint: I suspect that had the South been enabled to secede, it would have been quite inferior. economically, to the North, and the North would likely have won almost all battles for the West. People work harder for themselves, starting businesses, inventing new ways of doing things, etc., than they do for others. And see Susan Knox' comment directly above yours.
Yes. It's also why, so long as the North maintained its focus on victory, the South could never win. Other than cotton, the rest of the southern economy wa 15% of what the equivalent sector was in the North.
Thanks David. I knew I was opening a speculative can of worms. You are probably right in the main, but settling the west would have been a messier picture. One thing would have been very different for me personally. My grandfather went to Montana from Texas on a cattle drive. He met my grandmother there and settled down. Without a definitive end to the Civil War, it’s possible that doesn’t happen. And then there’s the 20th century wars in Europe. It’s easy to imagine the Confederacy staying out of the first and aligning itself with the Axis powers in the second. Does the Normandy invasion happen without southerners in large numbers? I’m not well enough read here to go farther on this, topic but I can’t imagine a hostile southern neighbor would have left the US to develop as it did but just without the South.
Without the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Mississippi will wipe out all the industry on it's way to the delta. In 1973, John MpcPhee wrote in the Control of Nature, that if Nature is allowed to take it's course, WWII would do less damage to Southern Louisiana and the oil industry in the bayou, and all the industries in the "American Ruhr". The Old South can not survive without Northern experience and expertise.
Let’s not forget that the northern insurance companies sold insurance policies to slave owners which insured the slaves!
The stain of slavery did not stop at the Mason-Dixon Line!
Southerners have always been good cannon fodder.
I made one Sacramento to Austin Texas round trip for work and another Sacramento to Washington DC Round trip, also for work. the rest of my work travel was via plane. too many to remember. That plus many National Park vacation trips. We have the good fortune to live in a beautiful country. It is a shame that all of us can't or won't understand that we are all the same Genus and species. I lived in Gainesville and Lakeland, Florida for a combined 17 months, that was all I could stomach of racism and southern drawl. When I went back for a short family visit in 1989 they ad managed to despoil the once beautiful white sand beach with black tarry oil, Yuck
Thank you for your comment Faye. I live in the PNW and they are already migrating here seeming exponentially. For the last few years there have been many more license plates from Florida, Texas, Alabama and more. In the last several months I've noticed an even greater uptick. They aren't tourists.
They know exactly where they're going on the roads. There new plates just haven't arrived yet.
God to hear!
It might be or it might not, depending on why they’ve come.