Evil including Ike, who made the great scumbag John Foster Dulles his Secretary of State.
Overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, destroying the last chance for a modern, western-oriented nationalism to take power in the Mideast. Installing the Shah led directly to the revolution of 1978 and our non-relationship with Iran today.
Evil including Ike, who made the great scumbag John Foster Dulles his Secretary of State.
Overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, destroying the last chance for a modern, western-oriented nationalism to take power in the Mideast. Installing the Shah led directly to the revolution of 1978 and our non-relationship with Iran today.
Overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, who wanted to institute land reform and allow the peasants of Central America a chance to join the 20th century - leading directly to the instability of Central America in the 70 years since.
Opposition to the Geneva Conference on Indochina in 1954, support of Ngo Dinh Diem in South Korea and refusal to hold the national elections in 1955 knowing Ho Chi Minh would win, leading to 20 years of war in Southeast Asia and the comeuppance of America.
Planning and approval of attempted overthrow of Castro in Cuba, leading to 65 years of not-so-cold war between US and Cuba.
All instigated by SecState Dulles and his brother Allen, head of the CIA, done with the approval of Ike.
And next chapter of the Chicago School of ruining the economics of many SA countries while supporting & creating police states in Chile & Argentina.etc.
One cannot begin to either comprehend or understand anything that happened during America’s involvement in the Southeast Asian wars of the 1960s without understanding that those events did not arise de novo with the election of John F. Kennedy as president in 1960. America’s wars in Southeast Asia were a long time coming. The United States had been effectively at war in Southeast Asia since 1950, and in many ways for much longer than that.
Perhaps the best description of what Americans would bring to the region is the famous line in Graham Greene’s novel of the First Indochina War, “The Quiet American,” in which the novel’s protagonist, cynical British journalist Thomas Fowler - a stand-in for Greene, who wrote the novel from experience - describes the title character, Alden Pyle: “I never knew a man who had better motives for all the trouble he caused... impregnably armored by his good intentions and his ignorance.”
At the same time, the Americans who came to Southeast Asia to fight could be compared with another fictional character, the detective Jake Gittes of Chinatown, who only gradually gains the terrible awareness of his own helplessness in the face of the omnipresence of power and abuse, “the futility of good intentions.”
John F. Kennedy, who could well be seen as the embodiment of Alden Pyle, and was perhaps more responsible than any other American for the wartime involvement of his country in Southeast Asia, visited South Vietnam as a young congressman on a fact-finding investigation in 1952. After two weeks of meetings with officials and dinner conversations with French colons in Saigon, and after receiving a quick tour of the countryside, he returned to the United States and wrote presciently of the trip in his diary: “We are more and more becoming colonialists in the minds of the people. Because everyone believes that we control the U.N. and because our wealth is supposedly inexhaustible, we will be damned if we don’t do what the new nations want.” Ten years later, one could argue he had forgotten every moment of his visit, every sight seen, every conversation engaged in.
TC, you have a vast political, historical and military knowledge of Asia. I do not. But the economic and political realities in SA were 1st scary. And have informed my reading and d growth ever since.
No but I was in SA in 1975 with people that lived it. The people that 'want" insurrection" need have a lived experience in a country going through it or one where the army is ascendant without that civilization order of what we have had...pretty scary reality. Good luck living in a police state thinking you can say or do whatever you want, as we do now under the 1st ammendment protections. Good luck thinking that fantasy survives the revolution.
Certainly sounds like a film I would like to see. I met people fleeing Chile & Argentina in the 1970s when I was in SA. Amazing to realize how the military disappeared so many people and how cavalier so many imbeciles embrace fascism here. They have no idea what a nightmare this is and how lucky they are, now, to be living in a democracy.
Far better for the US than for the world. I had forgotton a lot of those. My Dad (WWII Vet, USAAC SSgt) would never wear an "I Like Ike" button for those very reasons.
I remember sitting in the living room watching the Watergate hearings with him, and he said something to the effect "Nixon makes Eisenhower look good."
Indeed, details that I missed. I’ll blame it on being young and so impressed with Ike, the hero. And he was in so many ways. I remember my dad blathering on about JFD. It wasn’t til JFK murder that I became “woke” to politics. Thank you, I’ll keep that history lesson handy to pass on.
that's more or less what I tell people when they speak longingly of how great everything was when Ike was president and how great he was, mostly because of his now-famous (one-time barely mentioned) about the "military-industrial complex," since it came to exist on his watch.
anyone who's read Tim Weiner's "Legacy of Ashes" (and the sequel he's been working on) will not be very quick to talk about the honesty and pluck of America's behavior in the postwar era. economically, we were all a lot better off (if we were solidly middle class or working class backed by a strong union), but the behavior of our intelligence agencies (foreign and domestic)--at least until after the Church Committee disclosed how badly they'd been acting--was inexcusable.
in 1969, when I was doing the European backpacking thing (backpack plus very heavy Olympia that was only barely "portable"), we'd run into some kids our age (20) and they'd point out people they said were CIA agents. I'd nod and think about how paranoid they sounded (this happened in at least three places, but especially in Athens) and how generally level-headed I was. "Ignorant woe!" to quote Allen Ginsberg.
even when I was way too young to know what they were actually talking about, I remember every adult I knew practically spitting when they said the name "Dulles."
in their personal lives, the Dulles boys were opposites: John Foster was prudish and puritanical; Allen was a heavy womanizer. it seems to me that, at least on the surface, their jobs mirrored their personalities. but they were a formidably evil family and together caused irreparable damage...first, for their intended victims and then for the rest of us.
"I've lost my innocence" is easy to say; living it can hurt like a motherfucker.
Evil including Ike, who made the great scumbag John Foster Dulles his Secretary of State.
Overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, destroying the last chance for a modern, western-oriented nationalism to take power in the Mideast. Installing the Shah led directly to the revolution of 1978 and our non-relationship with Iran today.
Overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954, who wanted to institute land reform and allow the peasants of Central America a chance to join the 20th century - leading directly to the instability of Central America in the 70 years since.
Opposition to the Geneva Conference on Indochina in 1954, support of Ngo Dinh Diem in South Korea and refusal to hold the national elections in 1955 knowing Ho Chi Minh would win, leading to 20 years of war in Southeast Asia and the comeuppance of America.
Planning and approval of attempted overthrow of Castro in Cuba, leading to 65 years of not-so-cold war between US and Cuba.
All instigated by SecState Dulles and his brother Allen, head of the CIA, done with the approval of Ike.
That's quite a record, wouldn't you agree?
And next chapter of the Chicago School of ruining the economics of many SA countries while supporting & creating police states in Chile & Argentina.etc.
have you seen that documentary on The Chicago Boys in Chile?
as my best friend would (and frequently DOES) put it..."Some people have a lot of nerve with their shit."
As I put it in "Going Downtown":
One cannot begin to either comprehend or understand anything that happened during America’s involvement in the Southeast Asian wars of the 1960s without understanding that those events did not arise de novo with the election of John F. Kennedy as president in 1960. America’s wars in Southeast Asia were a long time coming. The United States had been effectively at war in Southeast Asia since 1950, and in many ways for much longer than that.
Perhaps the best description of what Americans would bring to the region is the famous line in Graham Greene’s novel of the First Indochina War, “The Quiet American,” in which the novel’s protagonist, cynical British journalist Thomas Fowler - a stand-in for Greene, who wrote the novel from experience - describes the title character, Alden Pyle: “I never knew a man who had better motives for all the trouble he caused... impregnably armored by his good intentions and his ignorance.”
At the same time, the Americans who came to Southeast Asia to fight could be compared with another fictional character, the detective Jake Gittes of Chinatown, who only gradually gains the terrible awareness of his own helplessness in the face of the omnipresence of power and abuse, “the futility of good intentions.”
John F. Kennedy, who could well be seen as the embodiment of Alden Pyle, and was perhaps more responsible than any other American for the wartime involvement of his country in Southeast Asia, visited South Vietnam as a young congressman on a fact-finding investigation in 1952. After two weeks of meetings with officials and dinner conversations with French colons in Saigon, and after receiving a quick tour of the countryside, he returned to the United States and wrote presciently of the trip in his diary: “We are more and more becoming colonialists in the minds of the people. Because everyone believes that we control the U.N. and because our wealth is supposedly inexhaustible, we will be damned if we don’t do what the new nations want.” Ten years later, one could argue he had forgotten every moment of his visit, every sight seen, every conversation engaged in.
TC, you have a vast political, historical and military knowledge of Asia. I do not. But the economic and political realities in SA were 1st scary. And have informed my reading and d growth ever since.
No but I was in SA in 1975 with people that lived it. The people that 'want" insurrection" need have a lived experience in a country going through it or one where the army is ascendant without that civilization order of what we have had...pretty scary reality. Good luck living in a police state thinking you can say or do whatever you want, as we do now under the 1st ammendment protections. Good luck thinking that fantasy survives the revolution.
Certainly sounds like a film I would like to see. I met people fleeing Chile & Argentina in the 1970s when I was in SA. Amazing to realize how the military disappeared so many people and how cavalier so many imbeciles embrace fascism here. They have no idea what a nightmare this is and how lucky they are, now, to be living in a democracy.
Far better for the US than for the world. I had forgotton a lot of those. My Dad (WWII Vet, USAAC SSgt) would never wear an "I Like Ike" button for those very reasons.
I remember sitting in the living room watching the Watergate hearings with him, and he said something to the effect "Nixon makes Eisenhower look good."
Sort of like history lessons on the lead ups to WW1 and WW2. The trails are well worn these days.
Indeed they are.
sounds just like my dad, also USAAC in WWII.
We, as a country, are reaping what we sowed those many years ago.
Why is knowledge so depressing sometimes?
because it necessarily includes a whole heap of Horrible Shit you'd prefer not to know.
Oh, indeed. DeSatan has a cure for that. Ha
Indeed, details that I missed. I’ll blame it on being young and so impressed with Ike, the hero. And he was in so many ways. I remember my dad blathering on about JFD. It wasn’t til JFK murder that I became “woke” to politics. Thank you, I’ll keep that history lesson handy to pass on.
that's more or less what I tell people when they speak longingly of how great everything was when Ike was president and how great he was, mostly because of his now-famous (one-time barely mentioned) about the "military-industrial complex," since it came to exist on his watch.
anyone who's read Tim Weiner's "Legacy of Ashes" (and the sequel he's been working on) will not be very quick to talk about the honesty and pluck of America's behavior in the postwar era. economically, we were all a lot better off (if we were solidly middle class or working class backed by a strong union), but the behavior of our intelligence agencies (foreign and domestic)--at least until after the Church Committee disclosed how badly they'd been acting--was inexcusable.
in 1969, when I was doing the European backpacking thing (backpack plus very heavy Olympia that was only barely "portable"), we'd run into some kids our age (20) and they'd point out people they said were CIA agents. I'd nod and think about how paranoid they sounded (this happened in at least three places, but especially in Athens) and how generally level-headed I was. "Ignorant woe!" to quote Allen Ginsberg.
even when I was way too young to know what they were actually talking about, I remember every adult I knew practically spitting when they said the name "Dulles."
in their personal lives, the Dulles boys were opposites: John Foster was prudish and puritanical; Allen was a heavy womanizer. it seems to me that, at least on the surface, their jobs mirrored their personalities. but they were a formidably evil family and together caused irreparable damage...first, for their intended victims and then for the rest of us.
"I've lost my innocence" is easy to say; living it can hurt like a motherfucker.
An old 78 with a few cracks and many scratches.
Tom, you meant Vietnam, not South Korea, yes?
both