So-called “anti-imperialists” among the left in the West have supported Putin’s Russia as a counterweight to Washington’s designs as a global hegemon since his first attempts to gain control of Ukraine in 2004, portraying the country as a hotbed of neo-Nazi neo-fascism and white supremacy overrun by “fascist street gangs.” I ended a few old friendships over this in those years.
It's true that the US has a poor history in regard to cross-cultural fairness, and is guilty of heinous mistreatment of indigenous and minority populations. But many of us do try to be better. It's not necessary to be perfect in order to oppose "bad" behavior in others. Sometimes one person's bad behavior is tolerated or even encouraged in other cultures. The key attribute which can be used to identify universal badness is simple. Does the behavior harm others? If so, it is truly bad, and those of us who recognize it, have a moral responsibility to do something to remediate. There are gray areas. Abortion immediately comes to mind. It's a little off topic, but a logical follow-on. Abortion is abhorrent mainly to the Evangelical Christian Right. The only conclusion I can make in regard to their objection is that if eternal life in the company of Jesus after death is the promise of the Evangelical Right Faith, then the death of the fetus is a tragedy only to the mother who, having considered her situation carefully, has made a difficult and gut-wrenching decision. Others do not have standing to criticize.
TC, Have the number of "ANTI-IMPERIALISTS” out there been counted? You wrote, 'I find this moral obtuseness on the part of people who claim to be the vanguard of “progress” particularly galling when I consider they support Putin as a “counterweight” to the evil they oppose in the west.' I am not impressed that this represents much of faction in this country.
'It used to be that the “democratic left” saw the totalitarians for what they actually were, regardless of what they said they were...' That seems overwhelming true today. I'm not convinced by THE AUTOCRAT’S DELUSION - PUTIN AND THE "ANTI-IMPERIALISTS”
The problem as I see it is the indifference and inattention of the American people. There is much more noise on the far-right and much less organization by the democrats and leftists/progressives. Americans don't like what's happening and not happening but are not aware of the deep descent the country is undergoing. It is the ignorance of much of the citizenry as well as having, been worn down in a country that kept disappointing them, while a few became obscenely rich. Not counting the anti-government, anti-taxes, anti-regulation movements, who admires our government or much else?
It's the people TC; they're not comfortable or hopeful. Inspired leadership? There are good elected politicians, journalists and activists -- but outstanding, just a very few and they're up against the Donor Class (MONEY), the Republican Party, FB/META, Fox News and the barely functioning government (being generous here).
Any part of this due to the ANTI-IMPERIALISTS, I don't see it.
It's a bigger faction than it should be (2 is too big for me). The entire NYC democratic socialist movement (at least that part that identifies with DSA) is tip-toeing around it because prominent DSAers like AOC are disavowing it, so perhaps if it leads to a split we will see which part is bigger. I went to a Bernie meeting here in LA in 2016 that was taken over by them, and the Bernie movement here still seems to be like that. So it's not nothing. And one can see over at HCR's page for yesterday that I poked a hornet's nest of them.
This kind of thinking is prominent in lefty havens like Madison WI and Ann Arbor MI.
One can see the history of the USA clearly and still see that there are few other places where you can be politically diverse without some in jail, and we're still the only country that has an official commitment to trying to be better.
TC, I didn't write that it was all over for the USA but pointed to several outstanding problems, which were not addressed in this piece. Importantly, I don't see them being addressed in the country. The odds aren't improving. What/who are going to awaken the people and galvanize a large number of us? P.S. What you poked was a small number, including me, who didn't like your language at an innocent. We were not a group of 'ANTI-IMPERIALISTS'. Are we pro-imperialists -- I wouldn't go that far.
Hi TC, We attracted a fair number of funny faces on the forum today. I hope we can team up again. Our act didn't compare to 'Nichols & May' but who knows how far we could go.
When I saw the following article about Berne Sanders, in today's Washington Post, I remembered your mention of him in this piece. How far can Bernie go? (Excerpts)
'Sanders ‘has not ruled out another run for president’ if Biden doesn’t'
“In the event of an open 2024 Democratic presidential primary, Sen. Sanders has not ruled out another run for president, so we advise that you answer any questions about 2024 with that in mind,” says the memo from Faiz Shakir, a close Sanders adviser who was his campaign manager when he ran in 2020.'
'The 80-year-old Sanders has long been active in midterm campaigns and has tended to endorse more liberal candidates. Among others this year, he is supporting Jessica Cisneros, a 28-year-old immigration lawyer who is challenging Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Tex.) in a May Democratic primary runoff. He is also backing state Rep. Summer Lee (D), a candidate for Congress in Pennsylvania.'
'The memo provides some proposed responses to hostile inquiries. “We do understand that corporate-backed campaigns will try to make Sen. Sanders’ endorsement controversial, especially in a Democratic Primary, so here are some answers to frequently asked questions,” it says.
“Sen. Sanders is an independent and an avowed Democratic Socialist. Why are you accepting his endorsement?” is one the questions that could come up, Shakir writes.'
'The proposed answer, according to Shakir, is, “Sen. Sanders is putting forward an extremely popular vision for the Democratic Party that will win back critical support that we have lost. In fact, Bernie wants to build power for the working class and take on the corporate socialism that our political system currently favors.”
'Another question the memo suggests could come up: “Will you support Sanders if he challenges Biden in 2024?”
The proposed response: “Sen. Sanders is focused on helping Joe Biden have a successful presidency. As Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, no one fought harder for the president’s policy agenda than Bernie. He traveled to Republican Congressional Districts last summer to promote Build Back Better. Unfortunately, that legislation was stopped by corporate Democrats.”
Before she died Madeleine Albright said we are a society of " self-absorption" and "moral numbness". This speaks somewhat to Pete Hall's touchstone question " Does it harm others?" in that our self absorption blinds us to anything that resembles the common good ( eg, our reaction to Covid mitigations!!). It also speaks to your point, I think, in that a great bulk of us is unhappily numb and, at the same time, strangely whiplashed by the noise coming from the far ends! I take TC's point as he is spotlighting a bastion area. Right now the shouting on the far right is louder but I guess there is some lesser noise coming from the far left. But, the great middle is not empty-- it is full of fear, disillusionment ( maybe not a totally bad thing) and discontent.
Hi Carol, I do not think that TC pinpointed the bastion (bulwark/rampart) of our country, and he did not counter my differing point of view. He just asserted there were more than some of us realize I didn't find his examples convincing. 'Self-absorption' is common, however 'whiplashing' is the result of more than 'noise'. Extreme behavior at school board meetings, in hospitals and daily encounters of threatening behavior have grown exponentially as has anger at government (which has not supported a vast number of Americans). Trump vocalized the grievances of many, labeled the enemies and coalesced the rage of millions and millions of people. The Republican Party, Social media/propaganda and control of state legislatures in red states are part of the force armed against democracy..
Yes. Every day DeSantis does something more extreme here in Florida!!! I am not a Disney fan in general but I hope they "whoop his ass " over this Reedy Creek thing....meanwhile our wussy State legislature goes right along with him.... hands him the redistricting!! Our wonderful Rep., Anna Eskamini says, " Welcome to the petty and punitive State of Florida" and to the Governor who is running for President on our backs!! People keep sayin g DeSantis is the smoother, smarter version of Trump-- I think he is going crazier by the minute!! And every time he has something really culture warry to announce he heads to The Villages!!!!
extremely well put and hard to argue with, but for a small point that is probably a matter of semantic misunderstanding: a lot of my father's family considered themselves rabidly anti-Stalinist socialists who had no problem declaring themselves "Trotskyites." if anyone would have asked them, many of them would probably have said that they were proudly "far-Left." but were they? that's a real question. in 1969, I was going out with someone whose parents were important labor leaders who were Party members, certainly until the 1940 pact (possibly beyond), but they were also fierce labor Zionists. I once mentioned this fact to a PL guy at CCNY that same year, and he bristled at the phrase "Marxist-Zionist Movement" because, by his lights, there could be no such things. he wouldn't hear anything different...I had to be wrong. no argument was anything he could possibly consider because BY DEFINITION he had to be right (ie--"correct"). at that point, I decided that the largest part of the farthest Left guys at City College (meaning far Left indeed) were pretty fucking stupid even if they could dance rings around me in any formal discussion of "dialectics." we should also remember that, following all of the crises you mention, membership in the ACP peeled away like crazy, so they all couldn't have been COMPLETELY brain dead. last night, I sat up with a friend and watched Chomsky's latest screed, and he was true to form in finding that most of everything that's horrible in the world is OUR FAULT. it's nice to know that SOMEONE can be counted on for consistency....and AHH...I seem to have forgotten all about TFF, who is probably the most consistent presence continuing to draw breath, alas.
I always ended up sort of laughing behind their backs at the Trots. So earnest and sincere in their belief they were the true "Bolsheviks." I never met a PL guy who wouldn't have been better off if he'd been hit by a bus. What a collection of clucks! And you've done such a wonderful bit of description of how these people all wanted to give themselves over to being subsumed in something, at the expense of being free, thinking they were making it free.
I had one or two friends at the Famous School in Cambridge who were in PL, and they were brain-dead only during the period they were actually IN PL, but figured at the time that any New York Jew who called himself a "Maoist" was someone you couldn't take seriously on any level. thing is, at CCNY c.1969, anyone who wanted to be considered Far Left had two choices: PL and the NCLC (which, as you know, became whatever LaRouche called his group during its various changings-of-political-stripe). the PL guys mostly either forgot about it or became dope fiends; the LaRouche people who stayed in were never the same...the whole thing just trashed their lives. and these were some very solid, smart and definitely nice people (jesus...I came so close to saying that "they were very fine people"). and yes, I agree that the Trotskyites I knew could be laughed at a little, but only seldom with any real meanness. because of my own peculiar position in college, I saved all my demonstrating for off-campus stuff. I am actually proud that I haven't been back in DC since October '67, when I ran into my general science teacher from seventh grade on the steps of the Pentagon.
my favorite of his books, possibly because it has his most purely eloquent prose and because it felt like a real "occasion." and it was. but it's probably as well-known as it was BECAUSE of the book. I must've read it about three times, plus the first time it was published in a single issue of "Harper's." he also wrote it pretty quickly, as I recall...I remember being surprised at how quickly.
MAGA = Make America Ghastly Again. The right/backward movement isn't worth the name conservative, and one can only wonder why and how they want to govern the NSUS, the Not So United States. "The US wants to be better", the amendments to the constitution are the statements of this, and it is unbelievable that the supreme court can choose to ignore the amendments at will. That's what the you are up against. Left extremists, unconsciously or by habit, is giving this backward movement a hand. Thanks for making that clear TC.
In 1990 I was on a project to Nicaragua, when the Sandinists were about to hand over power to the UNO. Once I was talking to Daniel Ortega's then new wife, that is listening to her rhetoric and seeing the decay of power in her eyes, that you describe.
I can't speak to the numbers; I know of two personally and they are no longer in my orbit. Having birthed their extreme leftist brain cells at Rice U. in Houston and elsewhere, they met and married in Manhattan, where they further crept to the left. Then, eschewing all forms of government, they left the Big Apple and moved to a rundown shack here in Caldwell County, Texas where they "homeschooled" two kids (who cannot do any form of math - Florida would be so proud) and raised goats for slaughter. When they went on their Bernie assault, I had enough. These are two individuals who pridefully seem to think they know more than anyone, who in addition to raising goats, work FOR the state government while condemning it and working against it in their private lives. If you cannot tell from this rant, I have no respect for them at all. As far as I'm concerned, that group of "anti-imperialists" is as much a cult as any other cult, whether or not it has a "leader." I don't know what enticed them into their world, but I do know that when you put two of these like-minded folks together, you might as well multiply that much animosity by a thousand.
It's true that the US has a poor history in regard to cross-cultural fairness, and is guilty of heinous mistreatment of indigenous and minority populations. But many of us do try to be better. It's not necessary to be perfect in order to oppose "bad" behavior in others. Sometimes one person's bad behavior is tolerated or even encouraged in other cultures. The key attribute which can be used to identify universal badness is simple. Does the behavior harm others? If so, it is truly bad, and those of us who recognize it, have a moral responsibility to do something to remediate. There are gray areas. Abortion immediately comes to mind. It's a little off topic, but a logical follow-on. Abortion is abhorrent mainly to the Evangelical Christian Right. The only conclusion I can make in regard to their objection is that if eternal life in the company of Jesus after death is the promise of the Evangelical Right Faith, then the death of the fetus is a tragedy only to the mother who, having considered her situation carefully, has made a difficult and gut-wrenching decision. Others do not have standing to criticize.
TC, Have the number of "ANTI-IMPERIALISTS” out there been counted? You wrote, 'I find this moral obtuseness on the part of people who claim to be the vanguard of “progress” particularly galling when I consider they support Putin as a “counterweight” to the evil they oppose in the west.' I am not impressed that this represents much of faction in this country.
'It used to be that the “democratic left” saw the totalitarians for what they actually were, regardless of what they said they were...' That seems overwhelming true today. I'm not convinced by THE AUTOCRAT’S DELUSION - PUTIN AND THE "ANTI-IMPERIALISTS”
The problem as I see it is the indifference and inattention of the American people. There is much more noise on the far-right and much less organization by the democrats and leftists/progressives. Americans don't like what's happening and not happening but are not aware of the deep descent the country is undergoing. It is the ignorance of much of the citizenry as well as having, been worn down in a country that kept disappointing them, while a few became obscenely rich. Not counting the anti-government, anti-taxes, anti-regulation movements, who admires our government or much else?
It's the people TC; they're not comfortable or hopeful. Inspired leadership? There are good elected politicians, journalists and activists -- but outstanding, just a very few and they're up against the Donor Class (MONEY), the Republican Party, FB/META, Fox News and the barely functioning government (being generous here).
Any part of this due to the ANTI-IMPERIALISTS, I don't see it.
It's a bigger faction than it should be (2 is too big for me). The entire NYC democratic socialist movement (at least that part that identifies with DSA) is tip-toeing around it because prominent DSAers like AOC are disavowing it, so perhaps if it leads to a split we will see which part is bigger. I went to a Bernie meeting here in LA in 2016 that was taken over by them, and the Bernie movement here still seems to be like that. So it's not nothing. And one can see over at HCR's page for yesterday that I poked a hornet's nest of them.
This kind of thinking is prominent in lefty havens like Madison WI and Ann Arbor MI.
One can see the history of the USA clearly and still see that there are few other places where you can be politically diverse without some in jail, and we're still the only country that has an official commitment to trying to be better.
TC, I didn't write that it was all over for the USA but pointed to several outstanding problems, which were not addressed in this piece. Importantly, I don't see them being addressed in the country. The odds aren't improving. What/who are going to awaken the people and galvanize a large number of us? P.S. What you poked was a small number, including me, who didn't like your language at an innocent. We were not a group of 'ANTI-IMPERIALISTS'. Are we pro-imperialists -- I wouldn't go that far.
The last time that happened was 1929. And that was in a society more "community oriented" than this one.
Hi TC, We attracted a fair number of funny faces on the forum today. I hope we can team up again. Our act didn't compare to 'Nichols & May' but who knows how far we could go.
When I saw the following article about Berne Sanders, in today's Washington Post, I remembered your mention of him in this piece. How far can Bernie go? (Excerpts)
'Sanders ‘has not ruled out another run for president’ if Biden doesn’t'
“In the event of an open 2024 Democratic presidential primary, Sen. Sanders has not ruled out another run for president, so we advise that you answer any questions about 2024 with that in mind,” says the memo from Faiz Shakir, a close Sanders adviser who was his campaign manager when he ran in 2020.'
'The 80-year-old Sanders has long been active in midterm campaigns and has tended to endorse more liberal candidates. Among others this year, he is supporting Jessica Cisneros, a 28-year-old immigration lawyer who is challenging Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Tex.) in a May Democratic primary runoff. He is also backing state Rep. Summer Lee (D), a candidate for Congress in Pennsylvania.'
'The memo provides some proposed responses to hostile inquiries. “We do understand that corporate-backed campaigns will try to make Sen. Sanders’ endorsement controversial, especially in a Democratic Primary, so here are some answers to frequently asked questions,” it says.
“Sen. Sanders is an independent and an avowed Democratic Socialist. Why are you accepting his endorsement?” is one the questions that could come up, Shakir writes.'
'The proposed answer, according to Shakir, is, “Sen. Sanders is putting forward an extremely popular vision for the Democratic Party that will win back critical support that we have lost. In fact, Bernie wants to build power for the working class and take on the corporate socialism that our political system currently favors.”
'Another question the memo suggests could come up: “Will you support Sanders if he challenges Biden in 2024?”
The proposed response: “Sen. Sanders is focused on helping Joe Biden have a successful presidency. As Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, no one fought harder for the president’s policy agenda than Bernie. He traveled to Republican Congressional Districts last summer to promote Build Back Better. Unfortunately, that legislation was stopped by corporate Democrats.”
Bernie again?
Before she died Madeleine Albright said we are a society of " self-absorption" and "moral numbness". This speaks somewhat to Pete Hall's touchstone question " Does it harm others?" in that our self absorption blinds us to anything that resembles the common good ( eg, our reaction to Covid mitigations!!). It also speaks to your point, I think, in that a great bulk of us is unhappily numb and, at the same time, strangely whiplashed by the noise coming from the far ends! I take TC's point as he is spotlighting a bastion area. Right now the shouting on the far right is louder but I guess there is some lesser noise coming from the far left. But, the great middle is not empty-- it is full of fear, disillusionment ( maybe not a totally bad thing) and discontent.
Hi Carol, I do not think that TC pinpointed the bastion (bulwark/rampart) of our country, and he did not counter my differing point of view. He just asserted there were more than some of us realize I didn't find his examples convincing. 'Self-absorption' is common, however 'whiplashing' is the result of more than 'noise'. Extreme behavior at school board meetings, in hospitals and daily encounters of threatening behavior have grown exponentially as has anger at government (which has not supported a vast number of Americans). Trump vocalized the grievances of many, labeled the enemies and coalesced the rage of millions and millions of people. The Republican Party, Social media/propaganda and control of state legislatures in red states are part of the force armed against democracy..
Yes. Every day DeSantis does something more extreme here in Florida!!! I am not a Disney fan in general but I hope they "whoop his ass " over this Reedy Creek thing....meanwhile our wussy State legislature goes right along with him.... hands him the redistricting!! Our wonderful Rep., Anna Eskamini says, " Welcome to the petty and punitive State of Florida" and to the Governor who is running for President on our backs!! People keep sayin g DeSantis is the smoother, smarter version of Trump-- I think he is going crazier by the minute!! And every time he has something really culture warry to announce he heads to The Villages!!!!
extremely well put and hard to argue with, but for a small point that is probably a matter of semantic misunderstanding: a lot of my father's family considered themselves rabidly anti-Stalinist socialists who had no problem declaring themselves "Trotskyites." if anyone would have asked them, many of them would probably have said that they were proudly "far-Left." but were they? that's a real question. in 1969, I was going out with someone whose parents were important labor leaders who were Party members, certainly until the 1940 pact (possibly beyond), but they were also fierce labor Zionists. I once mentioned this fact to a PL guy at CCNY that same year, and he bristled at the phrase "Marxist-Zionist Movement" because, by his lights, there could be no such things. he wouldn't hear anything different...I had to be wrong. no argument was anything he could possibly consider because BY DEFINITION he had to be right (ie--"correct"). at that point, I decided that the largest part of the farthest Left guys at City College (meaning far Left indeed) were pretty fucking stupid even if they could dance rings around me in any formal discussion of "dialectics." we should also remember that, following all of the crises you mention, membership in the ACP peeled away like crazy, so they all couldn't have been COMPLETELY brain dead. last night, I sat up with a friend and watched Chomsky's latest screed, and he was true to form in finding that most of everything that's horrible in the world is OUR FAULT. it's nice to know that SOMEONE can be counted on for consistency....and AHH...I seem to have forgotten all about TFF, who is probably the most consistent presence continuing to draw breath, alas.
I always ended up sort of laughing behind their backs at the Trots. So earnest and sincere in their belief they were the true "Bolsheviks." I never met a PL guy who wouldn't have been better off if he'd been hit by a bus. What a collection of clucks! And you've done such a wonderful bit of description of how these people all wanted to give themselves over to being subsumed in something, at the expense of being free, thinking they were making it free.
I had one or two friends at the Famous School in Cambridge who were in PL, and they were brain-dead only during the period they were actually IN PL, but figured at the time that any New York Jew who called himself a "Maoist" was someone you couldn't take seriously on any level. thing is, at CCNY c.1969, anyone who wanted to be considered Far Left had two choices: PL and the NCLC (which, as you know, became whatever LaRouche called his group during its various changings-of-political-stripe). the PL guys mostly either forgot about it or became dope fiends; the LaRouche people who stayed in were never the same...the whole thing just trashed their lives. and these were some very solid, smart and definitely nice people (jesus...I came so close to saying that "they were very fine people"). and yes, I agree that the Trotskyites I knew could be laughed at a little, but only seldom with any real meanness. because of my own peculiar position in college, I saved all my demonstrating for off-campus stuff. I am actually proud that I haven't been back in DC since October '67, when I ran into my general science teacher from seventh grade on the steps of the Pentagon.
Ever read mailer's "Armies of the Night"?
my favorite of his books, possibly because it has his most purely eloquent prose and because it felt like a real "occasion." and it was. but it's probably as well-known as it was BECAUSE of the book. I must've read it about three times, plus the first time it was published in a single issue of "Harper's." he also wrote it pretty quickly, as I recall...I remember being surprised at how quickly.
MAGA = Make America Ghastly Again. The right/backward movement isn't worth the name conservative, and one can only wonder why and how they want to govern the NSUS, the Not So United States. "The US wants to be better", the amendments to the constitution are the statements of this, and it is unbelievable that the supreme court can choose to ignore the amendments at will. That's what the you are up against. Left extremists, unconsciously or by habit, is giving this backward movement a hand. Thanks for making that clear TC.
In 1990 I was on a project to Nicaragua, when the Sandinists were about to hand over power to the UNO. Once I was talking to Daniel Ortega's then new wife, that is listening to her rhetoric and seeing the decay of power in her eyes, that you describe.
Very interesting post. I love your "expansion" of the meaning of MAGA.
I can't speak to the numbers; I know of two personally and they are no longer in my orbit. Having birthed their extreme leftist brain cells at Rice U. in Houston and elsewhere, they met and married in Manhattan, where they further crept to the left. Then, eschewing all forms of government, they left the Big Apple and moved to a rundown shack here in Caldwell County, Texas where they "homeschooled" two kids (who cannot do any form of math - Florida would be so proud) and raised goats for slaughter. When they went on their Bernie assault, I had enough. These are two individuals who pridefully seem to think they know more than anyone, who in addition to raising goats, work FOR the state government while condemning it and working against it in their private lives. If you cannot tell from this rant, I have no respect for them at all. As far as I'm concerned, that group of "anti-imperialists" is as much a cult as any other cult, whether or not it has a "leader." I don't know what enticed them into their world, but I do know that when you put two of these like-minded folks together, you might as well multiply that much animosity by a thousand.