While many observers have voiced concern about the possibility of Judge Judge Aileen M. Cannon being the judge who presides over the coming trial of Donald Trump for his criminal handling of government documents, for her rulings favoring the former president last year, which were overturned unanimously by the 11th District Court of Appeal, there is much more than her potential favoritism to be concerned about.
And the reason so many repubs love him. My smart Repub ex-best friend said the court was the reason she voted for chump. Her last comment to me about a month ago indicated that she might have regretted that she got what she wished for. Still, Repub all the way. Smart people can become cult nuts. Has there ever been any doubt…
I was sick when I read that she would be the presiding judge. She is bound to fuck it up either from her proven favoritism to trump or her extreme lack of experience. I have complete confidence in Jack Smith, and have read he has a backup plan. Let’s hope.
I'd be pretty shocked if he doesn't have one. he seems thorough enough, god knows.
some people have argued that she "might" be inclined to engage in better behavior because "the world will be watching." that argument strikes me as, in a word, bullshit. people who support TFF seem to care only about that. and there's no doubt in my mind that she hasn't had some kind of "communication" with his "people." yes, all of these inverted commas indicate sarcasm.
I have not abandoned all hope...again, JS surely must have had a plan to deal with exactly this possibility, since it was, after all, an actual possibility when he decided on Florida as the proper venue.
I've seen other arguments that a hung jury would be "humiliating" for JS and the DOJ. why? it'd only mean that one juror was a scumbag or a plant. either one would mean the other "possibility" was also true.
It’s beautiful. I wish I had gone there in 98 when I was in Ireland. I ran the Dublin Marathon then went down to Waterford and Kilkenny. That is where my great grandfather was from and I saw several of my relatives graves. It probably sounds morbid but I love the cemeteries in Ireland. Beautiful headstones.
I haven't been very far south in Ireland, but so far, my favorite place is Galway. we thought of buying a house in Galway City in the mid '90s, but all sorts of other things intervened and now there's no way I could afford it. plus, of course, I'm too old to be anywhere but here.
the thing about Galway is that it's on the coast and very picturesque, etc. but suddenly you hit Connemara and the landscape is like the moon or something.
a good friend of mine was just there (well, almost a year ago) and he said that for him, Galway was full of Tr***-supporting, conspiracy-loving English people. his favorite place was Belfast. maybe it's all true and I'm stuck back in the recent dark ages. but I like to think (or maybe it's "just" hope) it was just merely his bad luck. in fact, my next avatar might well just be one of me grinning broadly in Galway...and for some reason, I NEVER smile in pictures. especially during this last decade when teeth became a fashion accessory and the cane a necessity.
I wish I could have seen more of Ireland when I was there, but I didn’t have enough time. It is a beautiful place. I love the countryside, the buildings, the pubs and of course the cemeteries. The Rock of Cashel was really amazing to see.
I also like to spend time in cemeteries. I was about to call it weird but remembered the long tradition of writing about cemeteries so obviously I have stuff going on that's a whole lot weirder.
Well you didn’t ask but I’m going to explain my new Avatar pic if you haven’t already figured it out. In 2004 driving in Washington near Mt St Helen’s, she started coming alive for the first time since the 1980 eruption, and began spewing plumes of volcanic ash. Had to stop and watch. It was pretty cool, and not something you see everyday.
I often try to think of what my father (whose preoccupation was politics) would make of all this. I literally CANNOT take this thought experiment beyond about half a minute.
We got what we got. Until Cannon intercources up on the bench and Smith has Direct Demonstration of malfeasance for the 11th Circuit to become engaged with, Smith risks delegitimizing the trial in the eyes of the GOP base Better to let Cannon bury herself AGAIN for the world to see AGAIN and get this farcical pretender off to pasture
"No one is above the law." But if we lack confidence in the very judges of that law--either due to bias or inexperience--then we could have the "5th Ave shooter" getting away with it one more time. If that happens it is all over for us.
So, slightly off topic here, but why oh why is it at all necessary for the contents of documents to be revealed during a trial on the theft and/or retention, improper handling, and refusal to return those documents?
If "greymail" is an issue and there is a fear that Trump's lawyers will try to use exposure of the contents of those documents as a threat to coerce the government into pulling back some or all of the charges, why is the classification of the documents not sufficient to protect them from being revealed? One would expect such a reveal would be considered a crime by Trump and/or his lawyers in much the same way as Trump's more recent defamation of E. Jean has been added to the list of his charges.
Why is it necessary to reveal the contents of a jewel box in a trial to determine the guilt of the alleged thief? If the value is in question, it seems a role for an expert witness. If it's deemed necessary to reveal the documents' content, then will they need to reveal all documents in all of those boxes - clearly not. What content could possibly prove that Trump did not mishandle any of all those documents? Even if one is his own golfing sheet, still if even one is top secret, he is still guilty.
Showing any of those to anyone, including the judge (another reason to shudder at the idea of Cannon even starting out as the trial judge) seems entirely logically unnecessary. I must lack the proper imagination. This has been puzzling me.
my understanding is that the indictment deliberately avoided the issue of classification since the Espionage Act doesn't mention anything about what level of secrecy is assigned to the documents, only that they're concerned with defense issues.
and let's remember that this case happened first because it's the most open-and-shut one.
although that "perfect" Georgia phone call case comes pretty close.
looking at the metaphysical nature of these things, I've been wondering exactly what would make a phone call "perfect." I've been on some wonderful phone calls (last month, I had a splendid phone call on the occasion of an old friend's 75th birthday), but PERFECT??? as is so often true of anything relating to TFF, my mind threatens to spin so fast it will leave its old axis and end up god knows where.
As an old saying goes, you play the game with the cards you’re dealt. I’m pretty sure Smith has contingency plans ready, so we’ll all have to wait and see.
If I remember correctly, Joyce Vance explained that if Cannon is forced to recuse, then the next judge assigned is also random. She calculated that 9 of the remaining 14 (64%) were appointed by either Obama or Trump. Please go easy if my memory is faulty! If that's the case, the Trump judges could be even worse/more biased than Cannon, and the Obama judges would ratchet up the rhetoric on the other sideabout this being a witch hunt. Smith is undoubtedly aware of those traps. Let's trust him.
Perhaps, we're better off with the devil we know....
And then there are those who say Judge Cannon is the perfect choice for a Trump trial. She's egregiously incompetent because, as JennSH from NC points out, she's "a product of Mitch McConnell's judicial factory." Trump is criminally insane and we have a corrupt, illegitimate Supreme Court. These nefarious conditions pave the way for a dramatic deus ex machina interdiction from the cosmic power center of the universe. Maybe that's what Jack Smith is counting on. It's a plot situation reminiscent of the war in Vietnam. I can hear the exchange on the radios now as the legal eagles go into battle: Black Widow 1 to Control: "What's the situation?" Control to Black Widow 1: "SNAFU: Situation Normal, All Fucked Up!
Maybe she is not without some innate intelligence, and is at this moment considering exactly what is the best course of action for her and for this trial. She knows she will be under a microscope. The worst case scenario is that at some point in the procedural phase she throws the case out. There is no appeal (according to a legal person reporting on PBS / and IF I heard what I think I heard) in such a situation. However, there is another indictment - maybe 2 - in the works - one related to January 6 and the one coming out of Georgia. I am no sure she will get cold feet, but maybe she will let her intelligence lead her. She is not experienced enough to handle such a case, but she is the result of McConnell, that old snake, and his gop toadies. I wish the dems would get smarter about this gop. It is not the gop of 50 years ago. It is a fascist party and the sooner they understand that the sooner they may figure out how to legally counter what these folks are up to. Democracy is hanging by a very slender thread right now.
From what I am hearing from legal eagles with far more knowledge and experience than Lucy ever dreamed of having in her lifetime, the expectation is that she will NOT recuse herself and that she will continue to demonstrate her incompetence and partiality as before. She should never have been appointed to the bench in the first place.
Not until then but at that point, Jack Smith can intervene and request a replacement. He is too savvy to have chosen the south Florida venue, knowing she might be selected as judge, without knowing exactly how he intends to handle the situation. He won't ask for a recusal, lest it be seen as the very politicization of the trial that he was appointed by Garland to avoid, but will let her, excuse the expression, dig her own grave.
Agreed, thanks Mim. A recusal isn't in the cards, and if Judge Cannon has the smarts to put her socks on before her shoes, she'll ask for advice from the judges on the 11th Circuit if she gets into a tight spot. We'll have to rely on Mr. Smith and his team to pull this one off despite the challenges.
Hm... I feel like she is actively opposed as well though. She has now discovered the sting of rebuke, for sure. Perhaps that will encourage her to go more cautiously, but I am so very tired of expecting better sense out of MAGA supporters.
Doesn't it look just as biased for Mr. Smith to ask for her removal after she makes a call he doesn't like as for him to make it now, before he is just "objecting to her decisions", based on her documented strong political support for Trump such as attendance at rallies in paint-face and pro-Trump hat?
It seems like now would be no more apt to look biased to Trump supporters than later, and we all know they will scream nonsense no matter how carefully crafted the steps taken. The real question then is which would save the most time? A request for recusal now or later?
“I am so very tired of expecting better sense out of MAGA supporters.” I only add, cults have never been known for anything but lunacy (cyclical insanity). Beyond true of this one.
the idea that we should be worried about the reaction of TFF's "supporters" to something that "appears" biased is ridiculous. they've already weighed in...to them, the whole thing is revenge, overreach, governmental "weaponization"...pick whatever bullshit term you like. NONE of this is ok to them.
so fuck them.
if we're talking about trying to tamp down their violent predispositions, forget it. in case anyone's forgotten, appeasement doesn't work. it might DELAY shit a little, but that's it.
You'll never find me recommending taking one action or another based on the mistaken belief that if democrats just did everything exactly so, it would be possible to meet MAGA criticisms in ways that would satisfy and silence them.
Once that is on the table though, pointing out that either way there will be faux outrage allows moving on to figure out what really will matter to reality (in this case not only legalities but also perceptions by true independents - not the pretend "I'm Republican and Daddy was and I'll vote R no matter what but this is embarrassing lately so I'll tell you I'm an Independent" folk) and move to maximize those outcomes.
The Schiff thing is a case in point. I suspect the high number of CA representatives who voted against the resolution weren't so much fed up with MAGA extremism but were guarding their seats and loathe to set a precedence of astronomical fines for misbehavior, with an eye to their own exposures. Just look at their statements afterwards.
Judge Cannon, a product of Mitch McConnell's judicial factory.
Yep.
And the reason so many repubs love him. My smart Repub ex-best friend said the court was the reason she voted for chump. Her last comment to me about a month ago indicated that she might have regretted that she got what she wished for. Still, Repub all the way. Smart people can become cult nuts. Has there ever been any doubt…
Thanks TC for that superb explanation of why she's unqualified.
You're welcome.
I was sick when I read that she would be the presiding judge. She is bound to fuck it up either from her proven favoritism to trump or her extreme lack of experience. I have complete confidence in Jack Smith, and have read he has a backup plan. Let’s hope.
I'd be pretty shocked if he doesn't have one. he seems thorough enough, god knows.
some people have argued that she "might" be inclined to engage in better behavior because "the world will be watching." that argument strikes me as, in a word, bullshit. people who support TFF seem to care only about that. and there's no doubt in my mind that she hasn't had some kind of "communication" with his "people." yes, all of these inverted commas indicate sarcasm.
I have not abandoned all hope...again, JS surely must have had a plan to deal with exactly this possibility, since it was, after all, an actual possibility when he decided on Florida as the proper venue.
I've seen other arguments that a hung jury would be "humiliating" for JS and the DOJ. why? it'd only mean that one juror was a scumbag or a plant. either one would mean the other "possibility" was also true.
jeez, I hope I'm right.
I agree David. By the way I like your new avatar photo. Its a great picture. It’s time to change mine too. I will see what I can find.
That's a very cool avatar, Karen.
that's Connemara behind me, Summer of '95. possibly my favorite place.
It’s beautiful. I wish I had gone there in 98 when I was in Ireland. I ran the Dublin Marathon then went down to Waterford and Kilkenny. That is where my great grandfather was from and I saw several of my relatives graves. It probably sounds morbid but I love the cemeteries in Ireland. Beautiful headstones.
I haven't been very far south in Ireland, but so far, my favorite place is Galway. we thought of buying a house in Galway City in the mid '90s, but all sorts of other things intervened and now there's no way I could afford it. plus, of course, I'm too old to be anywhere but here.
the thing about Galway is that it's on the coast and very picturesque, etc. but suddenly you hit Connemara and the landscape is like the moon or something.
a good friend of mine was just there (well, almost a year ago) and he said that for him, Galway was full of Tr***-supporting, conspiracy-loving English people. his favorite place was Belfast. maybe it's all true and I'm stuck back in the recent dark ages. but I like to think (or maybe it's "just" hope) it was just merely his bad luck. in fact, my next avatar might well just be one of me grinning broadly in Galway...and for some reason, I NEVER smile in pictures. especially during this last decade when teeth became a fashion accessory and the cane a necessity.
I wish I could have seen more of Ireland when I was there, but I didn’t have enough time. It is a beautiful place. I love the countryside, the buildings, the pubs and of course the cemeteries. The Rock of Cashel was really amazing to see.
I also like to spend time in cemeteries. I was about to call it weird but remembered the long tradition of writing about cemeteries so obviously I have stuff going on that's a whole lot weirder.
Well you didn’t ask but I’m going to explain my new Avatar pic if you haven’t already figured it out. In 2004 driving in Washington near Mt St Helen’s, she started coming alive for the first time since the 1980 eruption, and began spewing plumes of volcanic ash. Had to stop and watch. It was pretty cool, and not something you see everyday.
it is DEFINITELY incredibly cool.
I wish I was shocked. Passed that point long ago.
Me too.
I often try to think of what my father (whose preoccupation was politics) would make of all this. I literally CANNOT take this thought experiment beyond about half a minute.
We got what we got. Until Cannon intercources up on the bench and Smith has Direct Demonstration of malfeasance for the 11th Circuit to become engaged with, Smith risks delegitimizing the trial in the eyes of the GOP base Better to let Cannon bury herself AGAIN for the world to see AGAIN and get this farcical pretender off to pasture
The cataract laden eyes of the gop base worships the amoral trump! Nothing will ever make this a legitimate trail for them!
Of course, however, for the rest of us, including fence sitters I think its important to remove any hints of givernment over reach
"No one is above the law." But if we lack confidence in the very judges of that law--either due to bias or inexperience--then we could have the "5th Ave shooter" getting away with it one more time. If that happens it is all over for us.
So, slightly off topic here, but why oh why is it at all necessary for the contents of documents to be revealed during a trial on the theft and/or retention, improper handling, and refusal to return those documents?
If "greymail" is an issue and there is a fear that Trump's lawyers will try to use exposure of the contents of those documents as a threat to coerce the government into pulling back some or all of the charges, why is the classification of the documents not sufficient to protect them from being revealed? One would expect such a reveal would be considered a crime by Trump and/or his lawyers in much the same way as Trump's more recent defamation of E. Jean has been added to the list of his charges.
Why is it necessary to reveal the contents of a jewel box in a trial to determine the guilt of the alleged thief? If the value is in question, it seems a role for an expert witness. If it's deemed necessary to reveal the documents' content, then will they need to reveal all documents in all of those boxes - clearly not. What content could possibly prove that Trump did not mishandle any of all those documents? Even if one is his own golfing sheet, still if even one is top secret, he is still guilty.
Showing any of those to anyone, including the judge (another reason to shudder at the idea of Cannon even starting out as the trial judge) seems entirely logically unnecessary. I must lack the proper imagination. This has been puzzling me.
my understanding is that the indictment deliberately avoided the issue of classification since the Espionage Act doesn't mention anything about what level of secrecy is assigned to the documents, only that they're concerned with defense issues.
and let's remember that this case happened first because it's the most open-and-shut one.
although that "perfect" Georgia phone call case comes pretty close.
looking at the metaphysical nature of these things, I've been wondering exactly what would make a phone call "perfect." I've been on some wonderful phone calls (last month, I had a splendid phone call on the occasion of an old friend's 75th birthday), but PERFECT??? as is so often true of anything relating to TFF, my mind threatens to spin so fast it will leave its old axis and end up god knows where.
They have to present the evidence in such a way that it "proves" their case.
I think the three fates got a knot in their bobbin with this assignment.
As an old saying goes, you play the game with the cards you’re dealt. I’m pretty sure Smith has contingency plans ready, so we’ll all have to wait and see.
If I remember correctly, Joyce Vance explained that if Cannon is forced to recuse, then the next judge assigned is also random. She calculated that 9 of the remaining 14 (64%) were appointed by either Obama or Trump. Please go easy if my memory is faulty! If that's the case, the Trump judges could be even worse/more biased than Cannon, and the Obama judges would ratchet up the rhetoric on the other sideabout this being a witch hunt. Smith is undoubtedly aware of those traps. Let's trust him.
Perhaps, we're better off with the devil we know....
Faint consolation
And then there are those who say Judge Cannon is the perfect choice for a Trump trial. She's egregiously incompetent because, as JennSH from NC points out, she's "a product of Mitch McConnell's judicial factory." Trump is criminally insane and we have a corrupt, illegitimate Supreme Court. These nefarious conditions pave the way for a dramatic deus ex machina interdiction from the cosmic power center of the universe. Maybe that's what Jack Smith is counting on. It's a plot situation reminiscent of the war in Vietnam. I can hear the exchange on the radios now as the legal eagles go into battle: Black Widow 1 to Control: "What's the situation?" Control to Black Widow 1: "SNAFU: Situation Normal, All Fucked Up!
I’m more worried she will tentative because of her position and background. I think her solidity with Trump may not be her demise.
I'm so happy to 'see' you back again!
Maybe she is not without some innate intelligence, and is at this moment considering exactly what is the best course of action for her and for this trial. She knows she will be under a microscope. The worst case scenario is that at some point in the procedural phase she throws the case out. There is no appeal (according to a legal person reporting on PBS / and IF I heard what I think I heard) in such a situation. However, there is another indictment - maybe 2 - in the works - one related to January 6 and the one coming out of Georgia. I am no sure she will get cold feet, but maybe she will let her intelligence lead her. She is not experienced enough to handle such a case, but she is the result of McConnell, that old snake, and his gop toadies. I wish the dems would get smarter about this gop. It is not the gop of 50 years ago. It is a fascist party and the sooner they understand that the sooner they may figure out how to legally counter what these folks are up to. Democracy is hanging by a very slender thread right now.
From what I am hearing from legal eagles with far more knowledge and experience than Lucy ever dreamed of having in her lifetime, the expectation is that she will NOT recuse herself and that she will continue to demonstrate her incompetence and partiality as before. She should never have been appointed to the bench in the first place.
True all dat.
She won’t screw up her appointment because of him. She knows all eyes are on her.
She might not play favorites for Trump, but her inexperience means she can inadvertently make a fatal decision without realizing she did.
Not until then but at that point, Jack Smith can intervene and request a replacement. He is too savvy to have chosen the south Florida venue, knowing she might be selected as judge, without knowing exactly how he intends to handle the situation. He won't ask for a recusal, lest it be seen as the very politicization of the trial that he was appointed by Garland to avoid, but will let her, excuse the expression, dig her own grave.
Exactly right, Mim.
Agreed, thanks Mim. A recusal isn't in the cards, and if Judge Cannon has the smarts to put her socks on before her shoes, she'll ask for advice from the judges on the 11th Circuit if she gets into a tight spot. We'll have to rely on Mr. Smith and his team to pull this one off despite the challenges.
Mim, you and me is on da same page
Mim, well stated. Thanks.
precisely.
Thank you Mim. Now I’m able to breathe again.
Agree. Thanks, Mim.
Exactly so, TC. She doesn't know what she doesn't know, and doesn't know how to recognize that.
Which makes her actually more dangerous than someone who is actively opposed.
We have to hope that Jack Smith's team will appeal any bad rulings and ask for a replacement on remand.
Hm... I feel like she is actively opposed as well though. She has now discovered the sting of rebuke, for sure. Perhaps that will encourage her to go more cautiously, but I am so very tired of expecting better sense out of MAGA supporters.
Doesn't it look just as biased for Mr. Smith to ask for her removal after she makes a call he doesn't like as for him to make it now, before he is just "objecting to her decisions", based on her documented strong political support for Trump such as attendance at rallies in paint-face and pro-Trump hat?
It seems like now would be no more apt to look biased to Trump supporters than later, and we all know they will scream nonsense no matter how carefully crafted the steps taken. The real question then is which would save the most time? A request for recusal now or later?
“I am so very tired of expecting better sense out of MAGA supporters.” I only add, cults have never been known for anything but lunacy (cyclical insanity). Beyond true of this one.
the idea that we should be worried about the reaction of TFF's "supporters" to something that "appears" biased is ridiculous. they've already weighed in...to them, the whole thing is revenge, overreach, governmental "weaponization"...pick whatever bullshit term you like. NONE of this is ok to them.
so fuck them.
if we're talking about trying to tamp down their violent predispositions, forget it. in case anyone's forgotten, appeasement doesn't work. it might DELAY shit a little, but that's it.
You'll never find me recommending taking one action or another based on the mistaken belief that if democrats just did everything exactly so, it would be possible to meet MAGA criticisms in ways that would satisfy and silence them.
Once that is on the table though, pointing out that either way there will be faux outrage allows moving on to figure out what really will matter to reality (in this case not only legalities but also perceptions by true independents - not the pretend "I'm Republican and Daddy was and I'll vote R no matter what but this is embarrassing lately so I'll tell you I'm an Independent" folk) and move to maximize those outcomes.
The Schiff thing is a case in point. I suspect the high number of CA representatives who voted against the resolution weren't so much fed up with MAGA extremism but were guarding their seats and loathe to set a precedence of astronomical fines for misbehavior, with an eye to their own exposures. Just look at their statements afterwards.
why would you assume she cares?
Of course surely she knew all eyes were on her before as well and look at how cautiously she proceeded then...
That was also before she got smacked down. When that happened, she did as directed.
but did she actually have a choice?