When the Supreme Court ruled in 1954 that separate schools for whites and blacks were unconstitutional and inherently unequal, the slow and frequently violent dismantling of segregation in schools began in the South.
Motivated by TC's stellar rundown of the history that provides context for what is happening in Texas right now, I was prompted to send the following Comment to President Biden at the White House:
"There is ample precedent for President Biden to federalize the Texas National Guard, and send federal troops to Texas to direct them to remove the razor wire and the barrier to the park that Governor Abbott is using in a way that is pre-Civil War in nature. President Eisenhower and President Kennedy both nationalized state National Guard troops to deal with Southern refusal to allow desegregation to proceed, with a successful result. This is no different. Abbott's actions are racist and secessionist, just like the firing on Fort Sumter."
Totally and completely agree with your comment, Gary. I immediately thought of Ft. Sumter when I learned what Abbott did at that park on the border. Absolutely nationalize the Guard troops and send in the Army! These people will not understand anything less than a show of force. Your suggestion about a court martial and dishonorable discharge for military individuals who disobey orders is spot on, TC.
By the way, I am a born and bred southerner. I hoped we were finally getting past the Civil War when Obama was elected. I was wrong!
Agreed, with President Biden also shouting from the rooftops that he's prepared to close the border entirely if circumstances warrant, BUT it's the Repubs who are blocking the deal -- just so He Who I'm Tired of Naming has a shot at slithering into power again.
When I teach my class on Lincoln, I like to say that a fun questions for historians to address is this one: If he had them, would Lincoln have used nuclear weapons on the South?
Now to another point. The governor of Nevada, who is the former sheriff of my county, signed on with Abbott. As a friend pointed out today, if I were a Democrat running against him in 2026, I would call him a traitor to his face.
Of course DeSantis has signed on with Abbott. He claims Biden can’t federalize his State Guard. They claim to have 1500 members and the Florida Legislature has approved over 100 million in funding.
Exactly Tom, which is why he created his very own Pretorian Guard. It was promoted as helpers during storms, but, rapidly morphed into militarized units. Members have gone from 400 to 1500. He’s increased funding from 10 million to 107 million. Ex military members have walked away in disgust. I agree, it’s time for the Feds to put their boot down.
A bill is now advancing through the Fl Legislature that would allow State Guard convicted of a crime or sued to be defended by our DeSantis worshipping AG, at taxpayer expense. Apparently all part of his original plan for the Guard. Not surprising now that the loser candidate has returned to “govern”.
I'd suggest one correction - it appears you have President Kennedy giving a speech in 1964. Sadly, that was impossible..... I agree - where the hell are the politicians with guts? I know Biden's "advisors" are telling him not to federalize the Guard so he doesn't lose votes in the south, but if he doesn't, he loses the country to the insurrectionists..... Faint heart ne'er won the fair maid - or a battle.
Thom Hartmann says "President Biden may be on the verge of doing the same in Texas, although his spokesperson this week said he’s going to wait to see if Congress can first pass the border aid package that’s currently being debated in the Senate (and opposed by Trump and Putin)." I haven't thought this through yet to see if I understand why, but I'm willing for a brief pause before kicking butt in TX if it will increase the chances of funding Ukraine which, for those keeping watch, is beginning to look more and more urgent.
Absolutely. President Biden should call Abbott and tell that chickenshit he's got 24 hours to get the wire and his troops gone. If at 24 hours and 1 minute this bullshit isn't finished, the 101st Airborne will take control of the guard, do the job, and kick the ass of anyone who gets in their way, including him.
Not sure but what you might be maligning chickenshit. Chicken manure is at least useful (after composting). As far as I can tell, Abbott is about as useless as a screen door on a submarine and as mean as riled rattler into the bargain.
😀 My apologies to chicken manure. It’s getting so you can’t find anything to compare these...alleged humans to that doesn’t malign the supposedly lower form.
I was really just kidding (and my apologies to you)....but you are quite right...these bad actors can't really be compared with anything from the natural world. They aren't in any way "natural"; they have honed and polished their malice and their vindictive rage. Poke them and their malevolence spews out in every direction.
well, it used to be just assumed that BY DEFINITION, this species is somehow superior to all the others because we have language. but recent developments necessitate a paradigm shift, dontcha think?
Thank You, Tom. This news is a great relief. I had forgotten that the U.S. President can federalize state national guard troops. I think I forgot it on purpose a few days into the Trump administration.
This is the mayhem hyenas screeching and scratching during the election year. Here's a chance for Merrick Garland to partially redeem himself and his timid handling of Trump's role in 1/6. Send some agents to "chat" with Abbott, and Paxton if necessary, with reminders that insurrection does not have to be violent, just acts against the governing authority, the feds. Provide a deadline. When it's not met, get arrest warrants, and serve them. If there's no reversal in the situation, nationalize the Guard with a US Army back-up. For those worried about the militias getting their guns out, the klan and the segregationists had plenty of guns during the episodes Tom cited and they did kill unarmed civilians then. Abbot's method resulted in the deaths of a mother and her two children, so there's already a human toll paid. Since when do we let the AK-and-AR anarchists call the shots? Our military is supposed to protect us from domestic enemies of the state as well.
Yes, it would be good to get a border and Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan bill, but the Louse in Exile has made it clear he will destroy Speaker Johnson and anyone else who sabotages his personal plans by audaciously putting the country and our allies first. This could be Biden's finest hour if he were to move on those who are thumbing their noses with impunity. If US troops have to disarm and/or disable militias, all the better because they then can't be available to seek out Trump's enemies.
I live just outside a border city that teems with Canadians crossing all the time and thousands of them working here because they can make more money here than in Canada. No fuss has been made for a hundred years though because they are mostly white. (Well, there was a little stink during Prohibition, but that's another story.)
I can't tell you how many times I have wished we'd just lop off TX and FL and maybe a few others, but of course even if an entirely peaceful division were to occur, how long do you think it would be before Blue USA were under attack from Red USA since just like it's never really been "we want freedom to live as we wish" so much as "we want you to live as we wish", with this kind of people it's always going to be about disapproval, force, greed and taking. Even the most perfect and peaceful secession would be just the beginning. Sorry, we've got to keep 'em!
Peacefully or otherwise, wouldn't any separation result in the withdrawal and relocation of ALL federal assets and personnel to U.S. territory? FBI, CAA, Air Force, Army, Navy, etc. The airports and ports would become foreign (and likely immediately embargoed). A logistical nightmare, complicated by local federal employees resigning en masse, but a great movie plot. Tanks lined up on what were previously interstate and are now the U.S. borders, with a carrier group patrolling off shore. Meanwhile the newly independent nation of Texas now has a genuine crises on its south western border with Mexico. How long until Abbott's incompetence leads to bloodshed and Mexico demands justice for the deaths? Where would Abbott fly off to hide then?
Texas is a current litigant on this issue. It should be held in contempt of court, as well. As well as Paxton personally.
One thing I don't know. Abbott has published a nastygram. Has the national guard, since the court acted, actually tried to prevent the cutting of the wire? Or this just the strutting of a powder pigeon.
Just as a linguistic/legal matter. Treason requires we be in a state of actual war. This would be "treason if he pushes it far enough."
The SCOTUS order says the Border Patrol can cut the wire, but does not require Texas to remove it, nor that they can replace it. So far the Border Patrol hasn’t attempted to cut anything. Texas has said they’re free to do that, but that new strands will be laid.
By the way, there’s a legal port of entry less than a half mile away.
Half a mile away from what? Any border wire? Or that park? Shelby park MUST be bigger than a dot on a map--isn't that whole area to the south of it the parK? Don't port of entries usually have barriers to either side, for sort of a funnel effect? Has anyone asked that woman's survivors why they didn't try the port of entry? Is there now a problem with declaring need for asylum at one? Are people being misled by the coyotes?
The only real solution seems to be the funding needed to PROCESS these people quickly. (Along with aid to the areas the people are fleeing from, if anything can be done to alleviate it.)
That’s why my law would be better. They can find funds somewhere in DHS. Probably just switch to bargain brand coffee and tap water for all their offices. Leave CBP alone and let them have Starbucks.
There's no doubt that people are being mislead by coyotes, as well as those maps the NGOs pass out in Latin America showing the routes. The area on the river adjacent to the park is less than a half a mile from the port of entry, which is open from 7am to 11pm, 7 days a week. While there's probably a line, this is where one should go to request asylum. However as the woman was a Mexican citizen, it's unlikely that was the intention of her or her coyote.
Any administration that can empower the CDC to declare a rent moratorium is surely clever enough to stop this. And any new law needed to solve this permanently can be drawn up in about two sentences, and not in the 4789 pages of BS Shumer no doubt has in his basement.
the asylum bill currently prohibits #2. There would have to be a change in THAT law for that to work.
#1 could work IF there is funding to increase the capabilities of the immigration courts. Some folks wait YEARS just to get an appointment. Biden definitely wants that. Doubt the GOP would do it. There could even be (decent) places to wait on this side of the border if the turnaround was more like months.
In the 50s there was no legislation in the house or
senate on desegregation.
Eisenhower really didn't have
it on his radar.
Biden has the border problem
in his face nearly 24/7 and
there is legislation in the senate, with enough right
headed republicans on it. He
says he will sign and enforce,
border closure the day it
hits his desk.
It's Mike Johnson and the
failed former republican house, run by an insane
caucus who are refusing to
even look at the bill. Johnson
said it out loud. And Trump's
whispering in his ear so he,
Johnson, doesn't lose his
job. A backbencher no one
even knew about!
Most republican governors
have irresponsibly, including
my own real birdbrain, have
sided with Abbott and have
committed their "state"
guards and marshalls to TX
for action, if needed.
Not against illegals. Against
their fellow citizens.
I'm not sure about the rest of
you, but I believe there are a
lot of innocent people who
live in Texas, whose lives
would be lost, in any confrontation between the
Federal national guard, military and what could be
brought to bear.
A lot of you have no idea about the militias down here. How big they are and how well armed they are. I live in the mountains and there's a lot of skullduggery that goes on in Arkansas, MS, LA, AL, GA,TX, OK. These are just a few!
I understand your concern, but, waiting for things to sort themselves out in court hasn’t served us well, especially when court decisions are ignored. And the House/Mile Johnson has already made it clear they won’t sign the bill on immigration. The Feds need to stop this “states rights” movement from snowballing. Republicans are beginning to believe the Federal Government doesn’t have legitimate authority. If this is allowed to continue it will only get worse.
You’re much more positive about passing immigration reform than I am. Trump has drawn a line in the sand and I don’t think Mike Johnson will cross it. What’s more we can’t allow state rebellion to stand. And yes we all have different perspectives. I hope you’re right.
The border belongs to the USA... not to Texas! Those Magats will just keep up the pressure... you have to push back or your gonna go deeper into that red hole Abbott is digging ... he loves being a bad ass! And if anyone dies it’s all on him...
Motivated by TC's stellar rundown of the history that provides context for what is happening in Texas right now, I was prompted to send the following Comment to President Biden at the White House:
"There is ample precedent for President Biden to federalize the Texas National Guard, and send federal troops to Texas to direct them to remove the razor wire and the barrier to the park that Governor Abbott is using in a way that is pre-Civil War in nature. President Eisenhower and President Kennedy both nationalized state National Guard troops to deal with Southern refusal to allow desegregation to proceed, with a successful result. This is no different. Abbott's actions are racist and secessionist, just like the firing on Fort Sumter."
Excellent!
Thank you, TC. From a writer like you, that is high praise, indeed.
Gary
Totally and completely agree with your comment, Gary. I immediately thought of Ft. Sumter when I learned what Abbott did at that park on the border. Absolutely nationalize the Guard troops and send in the Army! These people will not understand anything less than a show of force. Your suggestion about a court martial and dishonorable discharge for military individuals who disobey orders is spot on, TC.
By the way, I am a born and bred southerner. I hoped we were finally getting past the Civil War when Obama was elected. I was wrong!
Born and bred Southerner of the kind the "Official South" claims never existed. :-)
Yeah, I guess I am, too, except I was born and raised in VA. Of course, our current governor is one of the 25 that are "supporting" Abbott's idiocy.
The great "moderate" Youngkin.
Me too.
Yes!
Agreed, with President Biden also shouting from the rooftops that he's prepared to close the border entirely if circumstances warrant, BUT it's the Repubs who are blocking the deal -- just so He Who I'm Tired of Naming has a shot at slithering into power again.
Just call him TFG!
my preference is TFF ("The Fat Fuck"). try it. you might like it.
When I teach my class on Lincoln, I like to say that a fun questions for historians to address is this one: If he had them, would Lincoln have used nuclear weapons on the South?
Now to another point. The governor of Nevada, who is the former sheriff of my county, signed on with Abbott. As a friend pointed out today, if I were a Democrat running against him in 2026, I would call him a traitor to his face.
All the "constitutional Sheriff's" need to have happen to them what happened to Sheriff Roy Tillman in the last season of "Fargo."
“Constitutional Sheriffs” need to have their police powers revoked and be removed from office.
🙀 and what was that?
❤️
Of course DeSantis has signed on with Abbott. He claims Biden can’t federalize his State Guard. They claim to have 1500 members and the Florida Legislature has approved over 100 million in funding.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/655315-ron-desantis-kissimmee/
His Florida State Guard is not National Guard, so he's right. Killing 1500 white trash gator baits would improve the species.
Exactly Tom, which is why he created his very own Pretorian Guard. It was promoted as helpers during storms, but, rapidly morphed into militarized units. Members have gone from 400 to 1500. He’s increased funding from 10 million to 107 million. Ex military members have walked away in disgust. I agree, it’s time for the Feds to put their boot down.
in what way could ANY governor having his "own" National Guard competition possibly be legal?
Nor can DeSantis’ brown shirts disobey an order from Federal troops to leave.
A bill is now advancing through the Fl Legislature that would allow State Guard convicted of a crime or sued to be defended by our DeSantis worshipping AG, at taxpayer expense. Apparently all part of his original plan for the Guard. Not surprising now that the loser candidate has returned to “govern”.
I haven't heard much about the State Guard (joke) in awhile. I know the appointed leaders kept leaving in disgust.
I'd suggest one correction - it appears you have President Kennedy giving a speech in 1964. Sadly, that was impossible..... I agree - where the hell are the politicians with guts? I know Biden's "advisors" are telling him not to federalize the Guard so he doesn't lose votes in the south, but if he doesn't, he loses the country to the insurrectionists..... Faint heart ne'er won the fair maid - or a battle.
Agreed on all points - thanks for catching the date (corrected).
Thom Hartmann says "President Biden may be on the verge of doing the same in Texas, although his spokesperson this week said he’s going to wait to see if Congress can first pass the border aid package that’s currently being debated in the Senate (and opposed by Trump and Putin)." I haven't thought this through yet to see if I understand why, but I'm willing for a brief pause before kicking butt in TX if it will increase the chances of funding Ukraine which, for those keeping watch, is beginning to look more and more urgent.
Absolutely. President Biden should call Abbott and tell that chickenshit he's got 24 hours to get the wire and his troops gone. If at 24 hours and 1 minute this bullshit isn't finished, the 101st Airborne will take control of the guard, do the job, and kick the ass of anyone who gets in their way, including him.
Not sure but what you might be maligning chickenshit. Chicken manure is at least useful (after composting). As far as I can tell, Abbott is about as useless as a screen door on a submarine and as mean as riled rattler into the bargain.
😀 My apologies to chicken manure. It’s getting so you can’t find anything to compare these...alleged humans to that doesn’t malign the supposedly lower form.
I was really just kidding (and my apologies to you)....but you are quite right...these bad actors can't really be compared with anything from the natural world. They aren't in any way "natural"; they have honed and polished their malice and their vindictive rage. Poke them and their malevolence spews out in every direction.
No apology necessary! I got a good laugh. My farmer friend would agree with you.
well, it used to be just assumed that BY DEFINITION, this species is somehow superior to all the others because we have language. but recent developments necessitate a paradigm shift, dontcha think?
Thank You, Tom. This news is a great relief. I had forgotten that the U.S. President can federalize state national guard troops. I think I forgot it on purpose a few days into the Trump administration.
With Donald Trump’s military background he wouldn’t know how.
Whew.
This is the mayhem hyenas screeching and scratching during the election year. Here's a chance for Merrick Garland to partially redeem himself and his timid handling of Trump's role in 1/6. Send some agents to "chat" with Abbott, and Paxton if necessary, with reminders that insurrection does not have to be violent, just acts against the governing authority, the feds. Provide a deadline. When it's not met, get arrest warrants, and serve them. If there's no reversal in the situation, nationalize the Guard with a US Army back-up. For those worried about the militias getting their guns out, the klan and the segregationists had plenty of guns during the episodes Tom cited and they did kill unarmed civilians then. Abbot's method resulted in the deaths of a mother and her two children, so there's already a human toll paid. Since when do we let the AK-and-AR anarchists call the shots? Our military is supposed to protect us from domestic enemies of the state as well.
Yes, it would be good to get a border and Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan bill, but the Louse in Exile has made it clear he will destroy Speaker Johnson and anyone else who sabotages his personal plans by audaciously putting the country and our allies first. This could be Biden's finest hour if he were to move on those who are thumbing their noses with impunity. If US troops have to disarm and/or disable militias, all the better because they then can't be available to seek out Trump's enemies.
I live just outside a border city that teems with Canadians crossing all the time and thousands of them working here because they can make more money here than in Canada. No fuss has been made for a hundred years though because they are mostly white. (Well, there was a little stink during Prohibition, but that's another story.)
Let Texas "secede" if that is what Abbott wants. Take our federal dollars elsewhere.
I can't tell you how many times I have wished we'd just lop off TX and FL and maybe a few others, but of course even if an entirely peaceful division were to occur, how long do you think it would be before Blue USA were under attack from Red USA since just like it's never really been "we want freedom to live as we wish" so much as "we want you to live as we wish", with this kind of people it's always going to be about disapproval, force, greed and taking. Even the most perfect and peaceful secession would be just the beginning. Sorry, we've got to keep 'em!
Peacefully or otherwise, wouldn't any separation result in the withdrawal and relocation of ALL federal assets and personnel to U.S. territory? FBI, CAA, Air Force, Army, Navy, etc. The airports and ports would become foreign (and likely immediately embargoed). A logistical nightmare, complicated by local federal employees resigning en masse, but a great movie plot. Tanks lined up on what were previously interstate and are now the U.S. borders, with a carrier group patrolling off shore. Meanwhile the newly independent nation of Texas now has a genuine crises on its south western border with Mexico. How long until Abbott's incompetence leads to bloodshed and Mexico demands justice for the deaths? Where would Abbott fly off to hide then?
Ah, your next book... And it would make for an unexpected twist to have it start out as a peaceful agreement rather than as a civil war.
I laughed out loud.
Texas is a current litigant on this issue. It should be held in contempt of court, as well. As well as Paxton personally.
One thing I don't know. Abbott has published a nastygram. Has the national guard, since the court acted, actually tried to prevent the cutting of the wire? Or this just the strutting of a powder pigeon.
Just as a linguistic/legal matter. Treason requires we be in a state of actual war. This would be "treason if he pushes it far enough."
The SCOTUS order says the Border Patrol can cut the wire, but does not require Texas to remove it, nor that they can replace it. So far the Border Patrol hasn’t attempted to cut anything. Texas has said they’re free to do that, but that new strands will be laid.
By the way, there’s a legal port of entry less than a half mile away.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1LK5codDDjCGbGYc7?g_st=im (the green ribbon is the Rio Grande)
Half a mile away from what? Any border wire? Or that park? Shelby park MUST be bigger than a dot on a map--isn't that whole area to the south of it the parK? Don't port of entries usually have barriers to either side, for sort of a funnel effect? Has anyone asked that woman's survivors why they didn't try the port of entry? Is there now a problem with declaring need for asylum at one? Are people being misled by the coyotes?
The only real solution seems to be the funding needed to PROCESS these people quickly. (Along with aid to the areas the people are fleeing from, if anything can be done to alleviate it.)
This law supersedes previous law. Most of the funding could come from a reallocation of existing funds. Maybe that’s sentence three.
we don't know what it says, so it is hard to say what it supersedes.
Which existing funds?
That’s why my law would be better. They can find funds somewhere in DHS. Probably just switch to bargain brand coffee and tap water for all their offices. Leave CBP alone and let them have Starbucks.
the tooth fairy could come up with more funds
There's no doubt that people are being mislead by coyotes, as well as those maps the NGOs pass out in Latin America showing the routes. The area on the river adjacent to the park is less than a half a mile from the port of entry, which is open from 7am to 11pm, 7 days a week. While there's probably a line, this is where one should go to request asylum. However as the woman was a Mexican citizen, it's unlikely that was the intention of her or her coyote.
Any administration that can empower the CDC to declare a rent moratorium is surely clever enough to stop this. And any new law needed to solve this permanently can be drawn up in about two sentences, and not in the 4789 pages of BS Shumer no doubt has in his basement.
What two sentences?
How about 1) go to legal point of entry, apply, and wait over here until your case is cleared,
2) not going to point of entry will be ipso facto evidence your claim is false and you will be expelled immediately.
the asylum bill currently prohibits #2. There would have to be a change in THAT law for that to work.
#1 could work IF there is funding to increase the capabilities of the immigration courts. Some folks wait YEARS just to get an appointment. Biden definitely wants that. Doubt the GOP would do it. There could even be (decent) places to wait on this side of the border if the turnaround was more like months.
I'm going to get dinged on
this reply, but there it is.
Just stop a minute and think.
In the 50s there was no legislation in the house or
senate on desegregation.
Eisenhower really didn't have
it on his radar.
Biden has the border problem
in his face nearly 24/7 and
there is legislation in the senate, with enough right
headed republicans on it. He
says he will sign and enforce,
border closure the day it
hits his desk.
It's Mike Johnson and the
failed former republican house, run by an insane
caucus who are refusing to
even look at the bill. Johnson
said it out loud. And Trump's
whispering in his ear so he,
Johnson, doesn't lose his
job. A backbencher no one
even knew about!
Most republican governors
have irresponsibly, including
my own real birdbrain, have
sided with Abbott and have
committed their "state"
guards and marshalls to TX
for action, if needed.
Not against illegals. Against
their fellow citizens.
I'm not sure about the rest of
you, but I believe there are a
lot of innocent people who
live in Texas, whose lives
would be lost, in any confrontation between the
Federal national guard, military and what could be
brought to bear.
A lot of you have no idea about the militias down here. How big they are and how well armed they are. I live in the mountains and there's a lot of skullduggery that goes on in Arkansas, MS, LA, AL, GA,TX, OK. These are just a few!
This is no longer the Old South.
The militias need to be confronted and destroyed. Several thousand dead peckerwoods sounds like an improvement to me.
I understand your concern, but, waiting for things to sort themselves out in court hasn’t served us well, especially when court decisions are ignored. And the House/Mile Johnson has already made it clear they won’t sign the bill on immigration. The Feds need to stop this “states rights” movement from snowballing. Republicans are beginning to believe the Federal Government doesn’t have legitimate authority. If this is allowed to continue it will only get worse.
I'm not talking about the courts though, Diane. I'm
talking about legislation
that at this point, could move
a lot faster if Mike Johnson
can get his head out of an
Orange Dark Hole.
President Biden has come out
and put it right where it
needs to be. Pressure needs
to be put on the red house.
You’re much more positive about passing immigration reform than I am. Trump has drawn a line in the sand and I don’t think Mike Johnson will cross it. What’s more we can’t allow state rebellion to stand. And yes we all have different perspectives. I hope you’re right.
If they aren’t enforcing existing laws, what’s so special about this one? What’s in this super-duper miracle law, anyway?
Good eye.
The border belongs to the USA... not to Texas! Those Magats will just keep up the pressure... you have to push back or your gonna go deeper into that red hole Abbott is digging ... he loves being a bad ass! And if anyone dies it’s all on him...
Agree on all points. Time to follow Ike on this one.
Spot on Tom. One note, however, the June 11 speech was in 1963; JFK, regrettably, was no longer with us in June of '64.
Thanks - I corrected it now, if you read it at the website.
"Several thousand dead
peckerwoods"? What
about all the innocent caught
in the crossfire? The collateral damages this
sort of confrontation would
bring?
There are many thousands of
people who live throughout
the south who are not peckerwoods. Who have
come down here because
their jobs, military transfers,
warmer climate brought them. Many of us are trying
to change the political process here and we will,
slowly but surely.
It's not an overnight cure and
can't be accomplished by
killing a few thousand of our
supposed fellow men and women, no matter how you
may call them.
How many here have lost
someone they love to war?
I have and I know the cost.
I don't want to see it in my
own country.
Slowly has never worked there.
Couldn’t DOJ do something before Biden sends in troops? The Supreme Court said take down the razor wire.
How about telling us how many Jan 6 protesters have been locked up so some of these fools might back down?